• Havoc
  • Caius
  • redboot
  • Rules
  • Chain of Command
  • Members
  • Supported Ladders & Games
  • Downloads


panzer campaigns - bunkers
07-04-2020, 03:11 AM,
#1
ahelp  panzer campaigns - bunkers
hi

its been a few years since I have frequented the blitz, but hey whats a few years between friends

my question is simple,  what the the best way to tackle bunkers in the pzr campaign games, I have tried so many different approaches but come up short every time

any advice would be appreciated

thanks
Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2020, 04:11 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-04-2020, 04:14 AM by CheerfullyInsane.)
#2
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
Depends on a lot of things.

First, do you actually need to take the hex? If not, bypassing it is usually the way to go.
E.g. the defensive lines in Kursk have bunkers flanked by trenches, so you're far better off attacking the trenches instead.

If you have to take the hex, surround and isolate first. That drop in morale is kinda important.
Only exception is if you're fighting Japanese. Fanatical units won't surrender when Isolated, so it's better to push them out of the bunker first, and kill them in open terrain.

Next, you'll need to Disrupt the defenders, which means heavy artillery if you have it. Hard targets hit by artillery has double the chance of Disrupting units, but since Disruptions are dependent on causing casualties in the first place, you need some big tubes.
Alternatively, anything with good Hard Attack values. Tanks, AT-guns, heavy AA.
Air attacks with good Hard Attack is another option, but they're fairly rare.

Once Disrupted, you can consider the assault.
Always use units with the highest morale you can find.
The rest really depends on whether you have the Alternative Assault optional rule turned on or not.

Without it, look for units with high Assault values. Engineers, flame-tanks etc.

If Alt. Assault is on, you have to use tanks to assault. Only bring enough infantry to avoid Combined Arms penalties.
Since the infantry won't have any effect on the assault itself (since they usually have very low Hard Attack), it makes no sense to bring high-value infantry to the party.
Just note that the morale of the assault-resolution is based on the LOWEST value in the assault, so don't bring infantry with lower morale than the main armored units.

All in all, bunkers are a b*tch to deal with. With Alt. Assault on, they become even harder.
And digging high-morale units out of them is an exercise in futility.
So bypass them if at all possible.
If that isn't feasible, be prepared to spend a lot of assets and time on them.
Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2020, 07:53 AM,
#3
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/s...?tid=70529


Still relevant, my experience in Normandy`44   has been several consecutive  assaults rather then one big one, also Engineers in the mix tend to get better results.
Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2020, 08:57 AM,
#4
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
(07-04-2020, 07:53 AM)Fog of War Wrote: http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/s...?tid=70529


Still relevant, my experience in Normandy`44   has been several consecutive  assaults rather then one big one, also Engineers in the mix tend to get better results.

all good points especially softening up first with heavy artillery, AA or AT,  but you need time do this, i think if a bunker is essential you have to be patient, bring up as much heavy stuff as you can and batter away before the infantry assault

in scenarios like Normandy though this is not a viable option early on, try as i do, i cannot  secure Omaha at all, how do you approach dday on omaha
Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2020, 02:51 PM,
#5
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
(07-04-2020, 08:57 AM)everton Wrote: in scenarios like Normandy though this is not a viable option early on, try as i do, i cannot  secure Omaha at all, how do you approach dday on omaha

Ah, Omaha Beach.......
Well, that severely depends on which scenario and the optional rules in play.

Without Alt. Assault on it isn't too bad. It'll be bloody, but it can be done if by no other means than simply repeatedly throwing bodies at the bunkers. Don't be afraid to assault undisrupted defenders in the hope that they might disrupt. Eventually they will crumble.

With Alt. Assault on, it becomes much harder. Your best bet is to forego infantry reinforcements, and get all those AT-guns onto the beach.

The Alt_ scenarios with Alt. Assault on are, in my humble opinion, almost impossible.
The combination of anemic Hard Attack values, no Trench hex, and a 200% beach TEM almost ensures that Omaha will have to be rescued from outside.
Your best options are the same as always, heavy artillery and AT-guns, then pray to whatever deity you may have.
It won't work, but it's better than the alternatives.
Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2020, 06:01 PM,
#6
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
I'm playing Normandy 44 in a PBEM and my opponent stacked AT guns by the hundred to take the bunkers. It worked well because the German defenders could barely inflict any damage even if the AT guns were in T mode.
Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2020, 03:07 AM,
#7
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
The Rangers who land at Pointe du Hoc are essential to getting the 29th. Div off the beach, just as they were in  the real thing ( assuming your PBEM opponent is asleep) if not I think the US player is just screwed at Omaha by the Pillbox and bunkers, and perhaps the other landing sites as well.

The Allied Air and Navy strike power and numbers available at a given turn,  were nerfed  several times from the issue game 1.01 onward to accommodate  German PBEM players wishes for a more balanced game...….

If your just playing the AI, then that amazing US  secret weapon the editors are your best friend... ;) you can fine turn many aspects of the game with it.
Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2020, 04:47 AM,
#8
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
(07-05-2020, 03:07 AM)Fog of War Wrote: If your just playing the AI, then that amazing US  secret weapon the editors are your best friend... ;) you can fine turn many aspects of the game with it.

As CheerfullyInsane said "The combination of anemic Hard Attack values, no Trench hex, and a 200% beach TEM almost ensures that Omaha will have to be rescued from outside."

So a quick and easy change is to dial the TEM of beaches down to 100% and see how that plays.
Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2020, 06:05 AM,
#9
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
(07-05-2020, 04:47 AM)Plain Ian Wrote:
(07-05-2020, 03:07 AM)Fog of War Wrote: If your just playing the AI, then that amazing US  secret weapon the editors are your best friend... ;) you can fine turn many aspects of the game with it.

As CheerfullyInsane said "The combination of anemic Hard Attack values, no Trench hex, and a 200% beach TEM almost ensures that Omaha will have to be rescued from outside."

So a quick and easy change is to dial the TEM of beaches down to 100% and see how that plays.

thing is about the game, especially if u are playin pbem is the simple  equations of attack and defence modifiers  make it almost impossible to get of Omaha, the quote about having to be rescued by the other beaches renders the game too unrealistic imo  and look I know it is just  a game but it should give you at least a chance of emulating reality don't you think
 
its a pity but all the panzer campaign games I own tend t0 make it almost impossible to take bynkers and that is why I asked the question in case I was missing a trick , my problem now is that it seems I am not, I recently bought Rzhev 42 but the game is spoilt by the almost herculean task of assaulting the german bunkers although the heavy AA AT suggestion is interesting n di will give it a go 

again thanks for all the input
Quote this message in a reply
07-05-2020, 06:57 AM,
#10
RE: panzer campaigns - bunkers
(07-05-2020, 04:47 AM)Plain Ian Wrote: As CheerfullyInsane said "The combination of anemic Hard Attack values, no Trench hex, and a 200% beach TEM almost ensures that Omaha will have to be rescued from outside."

So a quick and easy change is to dial the TEM of beaches down to 100% and see how that plays.


Reducing the TEM helps, but it's not enough with Alt. Assault on.
Even if most of the US units stay undisrupted (and that's a mighty big 'if'), there simply isn't enough Hard Attack units available to assault off the beach.

Personally, I refuse to play with Alt. Assault on.
I get the idea behind it, but it brings all sorts of weird situations encouraging ahistorical play.

In Normandy'44 you're better off parking a unit of StuGIIIs in a bocage hex than infantry.
Granted, they'll have Combined Arms penalties, but unless the Allies bring armor/AT-guns of their own, they can beat back any infantry assault on their own.
Unsupported armored units holding back infantry in bocage-country......right.

In Japan'45 you get no use out of flame-tanks, unless you're attacking trenches.
If the Japanese are in bunkers, the tanks attack with their 37mm guns instead.
It's completely bonkers.

If an optional rule encourages you to lead a seaborne assault with AT-guns, something is seriously wrong.
Quote this message in a reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)