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How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
11-27-2019, 05:02 AM,
#11
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
So you could suggest that the Russian player in the example did not understand how the ZOC mechanics work in these games otherwise they would have not presented the German player with such juicy targets.

So understanding the basics is vital and if you make a mistake like this understanding what you did wrong and how to not make the same mistake again.  Wink
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11-27-2019, 06:43 AM,
#12
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
to add to what Mr. Grumpy says, one thing that I have learned is that sometimes you cannot avoid these sorts of deployment errors on any given turn. The reason you cannot avoid them often times traces back to the previous turns. For years the mistake I made over and over was not retreating a turn earlier than I thought I would have to. Retreating tactically before you are forced to allows you more control of how your retreat goes and where your opponent can advance. One reason I am mediocre at the PZC games (don't let my ELO score fool you-that is mostly F14 and EP14 games) is that the mobile dynamic of tanks is too big for my brain and attention span in anything larger than a medium sized scenario (on a good day). Even a good deployment with sound principals can get smashed up by combined arms, just not as quickly or as badly...
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11-27-2019, 07:27 AM,
#13
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
My experience is better extend your troops in siper web style over create big stacks, if you are forced to made them to defend a key position allways have strong flank forces and reserve troops to create a link to the big stack if situation goes to the hell.

Well, is not only you could made a tactical mistake in one turn... is that with game mechanics you can suffer a domino effect if the other player made a perfect timing in ZOC+assault. Is possible doing things in the correct order create mega stacks you can destroy easy because you force enemy to that kind of situations.

Is better lose some terrain over finish in a pocket.

Know when retreat and specially how do it to prevet be catches in the middle of a deployment is 50% science and 25% art and 25% luck.
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12-07-2019, 07:28 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-07-2019, 07:49 PM by Mowgli.)
#14
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
(11-26-2019, 11:30 AM)pokeytrev Wrote: Mowgli,
Than you for the very informative post with examples (excellent screenshots too, no less). I didn't even know that such a small and easy-to-make hole in your lines could make such a large difference. I knew supply lines and being isolated were a thing, but I didn't think one hex would play such a significant role. Now that I think about it, one hex in PzC is 1 kilometer, so one hex truly is plenty of space between units where isolation makes sense. I also downloaded your guide and could understand just enough to make sense of some of it. German has a lot of words that I can translate just by sound or spelling, though I did take a couple of semesters back in junior high way back when.

Out of curiosity, which game in the series do the screenshots come from?

These are screenshots from Smolensk '41, one of the Yelna scenarios. But I'm using the excellent mapmod which can be found here: http://www.mapmod.se/

(11-27-2019, 05:02 AM)Mr Grumpy Wrote: So you could suggest that the Russian player in the example did not understand how the ZOC mechanics work in these games otherwise they would have not presented the German player with such juicy targets.

So understanding the basics is vital and if you make a mistake like this understanding what you did wrong and how to not make the same mistake again.  Wink

I don't know where you're going with that. If you're implying I'm a bad player perhaps I am. I just try to give advice to newbies here. Also, in defence of my lack of concentration in this turn, the played scenario is just a chore for the Soviet player. The situation happened after 10 turns in which I was basically just falling back, never even firing a single shot. Even larsonney (who is a much better player) says the Soviets have no chance to win this and you will end up with some of your units isolated sooner or later.

I found that the chess-like absolute domination of the isolation/zoc mechanics surprise many new players. They're surprised how many limits it imposes on their game play. It's not so much about having a plan. Gameplay revolves more about making positional errors. Only once you're perfectly trained not to commit these errors does the tactical part come into play again. The dominance of positioning (over e.g. unit quality and creating local superiorty of force) is quite a big entry barrier for the enjoyment of the game, I have to say. That being said, it certainly has its place. But maybe the effects are little bit too extreme, or maybe it's because most scenarios make you struggle hard to cover a lot of distance with very few units. Or maybe I'm just playing the wrong scenarios. Big Grin
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12-08-2019, 03:58 AM,
#15
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
I think when playing the Germans in most east front games then ZOC is always a consideration to play if not the main one. 

Here is the situation in my current game of Moscow 42 playing the Rzhev scenario Jan 6th - Jan 9th.

The Russian player advanced over the river but because he has units which easily disrupt then it becomes possible to push him into isolated pockets and sometimes destroy them. I've managed to destroy one group south of Yelt'sy and isolate his units at Yelt'sy. I'm not strong enough at Syl'kovo but I think he realises now the risk in advancing there.

[Image: 2019-12-07_15h34_13.png]

I've got hotkey running so I'm using the the blankbox.bmp with the short cut reminders on until I can memorise them.
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12-08-2019, 04:04 AM,
#16
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
The situation to the south and again ZOC are a consideration. This time river lines. 

[Image: 2019-12-07_16h45_13.png]
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12-08-2019, 04:15 AM,
#17
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
Just to finish off the picture of this scenario, here is Rzhev. 

I made sure my units could retreat and used the technique mentioned in another thread of just steadily falling back one hex per turn where necessary. Sometimes I fired then then fell back but only if I could afford disruption from return fire. Another consideration to bear in mind when playing.

Fresh reserves (full strength 693rd Rgt....not 639th as I've mistakenly put on the picture oops) also helped. 

The Russian initially had 2 Divisions and fed in 3 more. If they recover from disruption, nearly every unit visible is disrupted, then it will be a tough fight for the last 6 turns.

[Image: 2019-12-07_17h03_55.png]
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12-08-2019, 05:53 AM,
#18
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
Mowgli, in the screenshots you posted the Isolation looks breakable depending on the MP's of the armoured/mobile units.

I think what Mr. Grumpy said was meant as a sort of "adapt and overcome" comment: you know what went wrong, so by making this mistake, you become a better player. Many of us learn the hard way: something goes wrong and you want to prevent it next time.

Also: the German unit in the north that would assault the HQ has no valid retreat path in this case, so it's vulnerable to a Soviet response.

A certain feel for (abstract) positioning isn't "required" but it helps a lot.

One important realization is that the PzC games are  wargames, not historical simulations.

That might sound silly, but what I mean is that what worked historically might not work in the game, which is why people suggest you read through the mechanics and try to get an understanding of what they mean and envision in-game. Not getting mechanics right the first time still happens to me from time to time as well, even after years of playing PzC and PB games.

To give two examples of what makes PzC different from historical situations:
-Indirect Fire is ineffective compared to Direct Fire. Direct Fire can be quite murderous whilst artillery fire is useful for attritional damage over time or softening up units.
-Armoured units are weak compared to infantry units, simply because they use the same Direct Fire mechanics and infantry units are (much) larger. Mobility is their main strength.

Understanding what units can or can't do comes from experience, don't think you're a below average player just because you might not have a full understanding of what various unit types are capable of. That will come with time.
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12-16-2019, 02:38 AM,
#19
RE: How to Start Playing PzC Games Properly? Any newbie guides?
(12-08-2019, 03:58 AM)Plain Ian Wrote: I've got hotkey running so I'm using the the blankbox.bmp with the short cut reminders on until I can memorise them.

What a good idea - I’m going to use that myself!

Respect4
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