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Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
08-29-2019, 07:12 AM,
#1
Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
Hello,

Looking over the product page for this game and the scenario/designer notes, it looks like there are campaign games for the early period covering the Vyazma/Bryansk battles (Octoberish) and then also ones for "Typhoon" starting in mid-November.  Is there not one that covers both in one large scenario?  I crave a full campaign that begins when the offensive really started in early October but still gives me enough time to try and get to Moscow.  I want to see if I can do better while the weather is good, but see it through until at least December.

I realize this would be many hundreds of turns type scenario.  Just curious what I'm getting before I buy...
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08-29-2019, 07:28 AM,
#2
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
It's sort of a similar issue that I see with Smolensk '41. I bought that game and picked the largest scenario I saw, "The Drive on Smolensk", without realizing ahead of time that it is only about 160 turns which would only go to late July. The "campaign" as a whole really went from July 8 to September, but there doesn't seem to be a scenario that covers the whole period. Maybe I just need to adjust my expectations, but I would love the ability to both see how far east I can get as the Germans early, and then defend the impending Soviet counterattacks. IMHO that would be more fun for the Soviet player too, as in a scenario only covering July 8 - 24 or thereabouts the opportunity for significant offensive operations is very limited for the Soviet side.
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08-29-2019, 07:44 PM,
#3
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
(08-29-2019, 07:12 AM)Zoetermeer Wrote: Hello,

Looking over the product page for this game and the scenario/designer notes, it looks like there are campaign games for the early period covering the Vyazma/Bryansk battles (Octoberish) and then also ones for "Typhoon" starting in mid-November.  Is there not one that covers both in one large scenario?  I crave a full campaign that begins when the offensive really started in early October but still gives me enough time to try and get to Moscow.  I want to see if I can do better while the weather is good, but see it through until at least December.

I realize this would be many hundreds of turns type scenario.  Just curious what I'm getting before I buy...

No, there isn't a campaign covering the entire period. The Typhoon campaigns in the game are already 421 turns, which is quite long by most players standards. To start them from 2 October would add almost 400 more turns.

I suspect finding opponents to play an 800+ turn scenario to a conclusion would be a problem and playing it against the AI would be a complete waste of time. So, I think the work involved in designing such a scenario would be hard to justify.
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08-30-2019, 12:25 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-30-2019, 12:25 PM by Zoetermeer.)
#4
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
I see your point. But I do think Smolensk '41 could have a larger scenario that is double the length of the current biggest one in that game, which would get you into early August and some real Soviet counterattacking. That would be around 400 turns, smaller than the big ones in Moscow and Kharkov.
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09-07-2019, 11:09 PM,
#5
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
(08-30-2019, 12:25 PM)Zoetermeer Wrote: I see your point.  But I do think Smolensk '41 could have a larger scenario that is double the length of the current biggest one in that game, which would get you into early August and some real Soviet counterattacking.  That would be around 400 turns, smaller than the big ones in Moscow and Kharkov.

Gent:  Smoke7

Curious. What is the longest turn scenario that you played against a human opponent to completion?   Whistle

I have played numerous PzC Campaign scenarios against human opponents;

* The Invasion of Crete (80 turns)
* Sicily Dry Feet Campaign (170 turns)
* Salerno Campaign (80 turns)
* Operation Eilbote (64 turns)
* The First Battle of Alamein (50 turns)
* Flanking the Mareth Line (64 turns)
* Smolensk Campaign (170 turns)
* Other campaign scenarios.

It was all I could do to stay disciplined and determined enough to complete these scenarios - especially the 170-turn ones and these matches were against good opponents and playing only the campaign scenarios exclusive of all other games. Also, the time commitment - it takes a long time to complete game turns since many of these campaign scenarios have lots of units. 

I can't imagine ever trying to complete a 400-turn scenario!  Yikes It most likely would take a year or more to complete against a human opponent. And as mentioned earlier, playing against the AI would be a total waste of time.

You may wish to consider playing some of the 50 - 80 turn scenarios before jumping off the deep end into the unbelievable 400-turn monster ones!  Smile

   
Regards, Mike / "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - George S. Patton /
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09-08-2019, 07:51 AM,
#6
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
Well I guess I am the poor sap who is wasting his time playing a 168 turn scenario vs the AI. I realize the games would take forever to finish, etc., but if the war ends on July 26 I have no incentive keep my forces in decent shape come the end of the game other than vps. Maybe OKH didn't either though.

I can already see some AI weaknesses but is it really totally useless playing it long-term campaign? I prefer playing solo, so I can play at my own tempo.
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09-08-2019, 09:05 AM,
#7
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
Yes, it is completely useless.
The AI works by scripts that set certain hexes as targets at certain points in time.
Or in other words, it relies on the author of the script being able to predict the most plausible cause of action that the player will take, and program the script accordingly.
Which is fine(-ish) for shorter scenarios where the options are limited, but completely bonkers with longer scenarios.
Imagine having the Panzer Lehr arrive at Normandy after a week of fighting.
With no knowledge whatsoever of how the battle has progressed thus far, where would you direct the AI to send it?
The AI is by far the biggest weakness of the PzC series.

The only way to play the longer scenarios with any degree of satisfaction is to either do PBEM, or do hot-seat and play yourself, as it were.

Like yourself, I prefer solo-play allowing me to come and go as I please.
So I do hot-seat campaigns, and I've found a reasonably satisfactory way to do it.
For each day, use notepad and write down general orders for each major formation (divisions on the Western front, probably Corps in the East) , and then do your utmost to stick to those orders.

Granted, it does take a certain amount of schizophrenia and it's a bit like getting a kiss from your sister, but it does sorta work. Big Grin
Certainly better than playing the AI. :)
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09-08-2019, 11:03 PM,
#8
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
When I started out with Sicily and had a few games against the AI I thought I was a military genius when I surrounded the entire HG Div while they sat and watched me and did nothing...…………...…..then I played a human opponent and found out I was not......…. Whistle 

I understand some players do not want to commit to PBEM games and hot-seat is certainly a better choice than the AI but without FOW these games just lose their edge for me..... Smile
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09-09-2019, 12:19 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-09-2019, 10:21 PM by Outlaw Josey Wales.)
#9
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
The ai does not have the ability to change it's mind and I hope it never does. A whole new set of problems would emerge for mankind. We already have billions of people in this world with differing opinions and ideas. Don't need to add millions or billions of machines to the mix essentially creating another 'race'.

The best thing is to advertise for an opponent with a patience for your turn rate. It may or may not take some time, but, they are out there.
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09-09-2019, 03:31 AM,
#10
RE: Moscow '41 Grand Campaign?
Same advice from me. You'll find an opponent for every turn rate.
"Tapfer. Standhaft. Treu." - PzGrenB.13 Ried/Innkreis
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