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JTCS - Viet Nam
08-01-2019, 04:05 AM,
#41
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
(08-01-2019, 04:01 AM)Jason Petho Wrote:
Quote:However until the developers at Matrix redesign the game with a proper time scale with its accordingly proper unit scale

Oh good! That's precisely what we're doing! Yay!

I have little reason to believe that this is actually going to happen.  As stated earlier in this thread you have already stated that the turns are actually 10 minutes not 6.  That not a redesign.

What I suspect is the same game with the same unit values, with better graphics and a manual that says "Turns are 10 minutes each."

Not buying what your selling here.

Sorry
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08-01-2019, 04:06 AM,
#42
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
(08-01-2019, 03:48 AM)Hawk Kriegsman Wrote: However until the developers at Matrix redesign the game with a proper time scale with its accordingly proper unit scale you won't see a single cent from me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what the developers are saying, that the original calculations are erroneous? ...and they are correcting the mistake? Have we just assumed the original calculations were correct, just because it was written as such in the manual?

Dave
Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. --Walt Kelly
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08-01-2019, 04:20 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2019, 04:21 AM by Hawk Kriegsman.)
#43
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
(08-01-2019, 04:06 AM)Scud Wrote:
(08-01-2019, 03:48 AM)Hawk Kriegsman Wrote: However until the developers at Matrix redesign the game with a proper time scale with its accordingly proper unit scale you won't see a single cent from me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what the developers are saying, that the original calculations are erroneous? ...and they are correcting the mistake? Have we just assumed the original calculations were correct, just because it was written as such in the manual?

Dave

Ok,

Go read the previous comments.   Here I will assist with one glaring one.

"Why they decided to put 6 minutes in the manual, who knows. But looking at how the unit parameters were created (in order to create new units) shows that the parameters were all created with 10 minutes in mind."

Let see.  1997 to 2014 is 17 years.  And I believe Marix released JTCS in 2010.  So still 13 years and no one told the original development guys have you got this wrong we need to tweak it.  This included a group of guys who helped design, playtest and create the greatest tactical WW2 board game of all time: Squad Leader (another game ruined by subsequent parties who believed they knew better.)

So yes your wrong.

I am going to trust and believe guys who have Squad Leader in their game resume over the Matrix Dev team who does not.
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08-01-2019, 04:35 AM,
#44
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
Hmmm. Then if I'm understanding Jason and Petri correctly, the problem can be easily resolved just by putting back the 6 minute a turn back into the manual. Then telling everyone that it's so. Easy.

I dunno. Math is the reason God created aspirin. I just like to play.  Smile

Dave
Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. --Walt Kelly
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08-01-2019, 04:40 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2019, 04:40 AM by Jason Petho.)
#45
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
Quote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what the developers are saying, that the original calculations are erroneous? ...and they are correcting the mistake? Have we just assumed the original calculations were correct, just because it was written as such in the manual?
That is precisely correct.
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08-01-2019, 04:42 AM,
#46
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
Quote:So still 13 years and no one told the original development guys have you got this wrong we need to tweak it.

Why would anyone suggest otherwise when it was taken as verbatim (and still is apparently)?  

Only digging into it confirms that it was incorrect from the get go.
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08-01-2019, 04:50 AM,
#47
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
(08-01-2019, 04:42 AM)Jason Petho Wrote:
Quote:So still 13 years and no one told the original development guys have you got this wrong we need to tweak it.

Why would anyone suggest otherwise when it was taken as verbatim (and still is apparently)?  

Only digging into it confirms that it was incorrect from the get go.

No, YOU and the Matrix Dev team believe that it was incorrect from the get go. 

That does not make it true.

Again have the original developers step up and say our bad it should be 10 minutes.

Anything outside of this is just your opinion.
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08-01-2019, 04:56 AM,
#48
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
Why are you guys quoting old manual as everyone knows what's there, that's the whole point here.

Yes, the data values do not match 6 minutes turn. Yes, Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader got movement wrong, too. Arab-Israeli Wars corrected that, but kept the "6 minute turns" but changed unit parameters instead.

We are not changing unit parameters, as that would change how the game plays. We are changing the manual definition.

I gave examples there, why do I not see any questions or comments on them?
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08-01-2019, 05:19 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2019, 05:21 AM by Hawk Kriegsman.)
#49
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
(07-30-2019, 12:35 AM)Battle Kat Wrote: Yes, that is the formula how it is calculated. Then, when you look at how far the units can travel per terrain type, you will notice the marathon runners that many of the infantry foot units are, for instance. The data values would be out of whack, if you calculate ten turns to an hour. But if you calculate six turns to an hour, then they make sense. Hence, the change in manual description, and not in unit data.

It is not out of whack.   1K per 6 minutes is 10K per hour.  This is the equivalent of a 4 hour and 13 minute marathon. 

That is the equivalent of 42 six minute turns.  A unit could move that way in a 42 turn game. Yes it is a bit unrealistic.  That is an extreme example. 

So we convert to your hypothetical 10 minute turns.  Now our marathon time changes to 7 hours and 1 minute.

This also the equivalent of 42 ten minute turns.  Now it goes from a bit unrealistic to absolutely ludicrous.  No unit is marching for 7 straight hours.

The issue is the game was designed to be in the 10 to 20 turn range.  Not the 40 turn range.  The larger the scenario the more that things become unrealistic.

In a game that lacks a true fatigue element you have not made any more sense than the original designers. 

Nice try but no. The original developers got it right.  Sorry.
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08-01-2019, 05:30 AM,
#50
RE: JTCS - Viet Nam
Hawk, it is not 10 clicks an hour, but 11.125 clicks due to double time. As the default average for all grunts. That is a 3 hr 45 minute marathon. Battle gear, combat boots.

The larger the scenario the more things become unrealistic (per 6, or 10, minute turns), agreed. All action, no pause, God view to all units on map, no unit disobeying or misunderstaning orders. But that's another thing isn't it.

I've explained this to gamers by saying there's the game (base) scale as how units are designed.

Then there's the scenario duration, the latter depending on playtesting, with number of turns required matching expected results, and that is that.
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