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The elementar PROBLEM with the game
04-23-2019, 10:36 PM,
#11
RE: The elementar PROBLEM with the game
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm is truly outstanding and it's phased (WEGO, I think ?) combat system is one of the best I've ever seen. It's maps are gorgeous !
"Plans are nothing; planning is everything." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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04-23-2019, 11:13 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-23-2019, 11:14 PM by Kool Kat.)
#12
RE: The elementar PROBLEM with the game
(04-23-2019, 09:20 PM)wiggum Wrote: @ Kool Kat

Sorry but thats a little confusing. Why should i play another game ? I was just thinking about what would improve PzC in my opinion. Do you believe PzC is perfect ? I hope not. Then why cant we have a discussion about features that could improve PzC ? Also, PzC already has Phases. It has an AI. New features already got added in the past. So i dont see a problem when i play in Phases, use the AI and ask for (or think about) features to be included.
And Flashpoint Campaigns is a totally different type of game (scale).

Gent:  Smoke7

It is fun to speculate and dream about new features for PzC... but as 2-81 Armor stated "I really doubt anything like this is going to happen anytime soon, and most likely never." I concur.

Please note that I never argued that PzC is perfect nor did I disagree with having discussions about PzC features. I also never stated that there was anything "wrong" with playing in phases.  

I disagree with your premise that "something was (is) wrong" with John Tiller Campaign games. 

I have played numerous PzC Campaign scenarios against human opponents;

* The Invasion of Crete (80 turns)
* Sicily Dry Feet Campaign (170 turns)
* Salerno Campaign (80 turns)
* Operation Eilbote (64 turns)
* The First Battle of Alamein (50 turns)
* Flanking the Mareth Line (64 turns)
* Smolensk Campaign (170 turns)
* Other campaign scenarios.

I enjoy the mental exercise of calculating when to initiate unit combat. It is both an art and skill set that carries tactical as well as strategic implications. I don't trust the AI to make these in game combat decisions for me and prefer to have complete control over all the units under my command. The PzC game system allows me to play scenarios in this manner and is one of the great features that I enjoy as a gamer.  Smile

What you propose would eliminate one of the key features that I find most intriguing and fun... and would fundamentally change the PzC game system. 

I respectfully disagree with your premise that "something is wrong" with the PzC game system and with the percentage chance of the game designers enacting your proposed feature changes very low... that is why I suggested you look to another game system that has these features.

Thankfully, here in the TOC Forums we have the freedom to both agree and disagree with players' opinions and to do so in a civil manner!  Big Grin   
Regards, Mike / "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - George S. Patton /
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04-24-2019, 12:41 AM,
#13
RE: The elementar PROBLEM with the game
(04-23-2019, 11:13 PM)Kool Kat Wrote: Gent:  Smoke7

It is fun to speculate and dream about new features for PzC... but as 2-81 Armor stated "I really doubt anything like this is going to happen anytime soon, and most likely never." I concur.

Please note that I never argued that PzC is perfect nor did I disagree with having discussions about PzC features. I also never stated that there was anything "wrong" with playing in phases.  

I disagree with your premise that "something was (is) wrong" with John Tiller Campaign games. 

I have played numerous PzC Campaign scenarios against human opponents;

* The Invasion of Crete (80 turns)
* Sicily Dry Feet Campaign (170 turns)
* Salerno Campaign (80 turns)
* Operation Eilbote (64 turns)
* The First Battle of Alamein (50 turns)
* Flanking the Mareth Line (64 turns)
* Smolensk Campaign (170 turns)
* Other campaign scenarios.

I enjoy the mental exercise of calculating when to initiate unit combat. It is both an art and skill set that carries tactical as well as strategic implications. I don't trust the AI to make these in game combat decisions for me and prefer to have complete control over all the units under my command. The PzC game system allows me to play scenarios in this manner and is one of the great features that I enjoy as a gamer.  Smile

What you propose would eliminate one of the key features that I find most intriguing and fun... and would fundamentally change the PzC game system. 

I respectfully disagree with your premise that "something is wrong" with the PzC game system and with the percentage chance of the game designers enacting your proposed feature changes very low... that is why I suggested you look to another game system that has these features.

Thankfully, here in the TOC Forums we have the freedom to both agree and disagree with players' opinions and to do so in a civil manner!  Big Grin   

id also have to vehemently disagree with the games looking great IF MODDED...
i think the WDS team has done a fantastic job with the gold updates (that, along w/ DD, no cd player on this computer) have gotten me back into playing these games after years away.
cheers
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04-24-2019, 12:43 AM,
#14
RE: The elementar PROBLEM with the game
@ Kool Kat: Well put, and thank you for clarifying things. At first I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic and telling the heretics to go away or not. Turns out you weren't.

For myself it's become a question of collecting vs actual playing, and there are, as you point out, other systems out there. Flashpoint, which I own and play is a very good, and Desert War which is also WEGO has potential too, once some issues get resolved. Both systems are evolving, and that's a good thing. Others like the PzC and TOAW systems may have reached the limits of what can be done. Not a bad record though for things that are 20+ years old when I come to think about it.

The Tiller system is just fine with me for tactical level and Black Powder play. I'm just going to cease using it for operational level entertainment...for now anyway. Too fiddly for me at my now advanced age, but others like it and their opinions are as valid as mine or anyone else's.

Game on my friend, it's been nice exchanging views.
"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow."- Sgt Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron
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04-24-2019, 01:06 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 01:27 AM by wiggum.)
#15
RE: The elementar PROBLEM with the game
@ lezgo killemall

I thank the WDS team for doing the gold updates and while the unit graphics have been improved massively, the map artwork still looks equal in my opinion to the "old" PzC. The MapMod by Jison brings the map quality to another level in my opinion and i cant see myself playing PzC without it. In addition i did also modify some graphics on my own for a cleaner interface. I did the same with my Panzer Battle and Squad Battle games that i own. I even fixed some clearly broken graphics in Squad Battles and made them available. I really enjoy modding these games.

But this is of course a matter of taste although i think objectively the MapMod looks much more modern and cleaner.

@ Kool Kat

Actually, with the system i was "dreaming" about you would basically have as much control, it would speed up the turns and you could concentrate more on the "operational" (maneuver/movement) aspect of the game. :)
So i have to disagree that what i propose would eliminate this aspect of the game. But you are correct that a attrition calculation for the 2 units adjacent to your unit is something different then "shooting" manually with your unit at (one or both) of this enemy units. Maybe we just enjoy different things in PzC since i dont really enjoy the "shooter" aspect in large scenarios. It is tedious and its easy to forget to fire with a important unit when you have to manually fire hundreds of counters.

Of course i know that other games have such a feature like i propose. But they do not provide many of the things i love about PzC. :)
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04-24-2019, 01:45 AM, (This post was last modified: 04-24-2019, 01:46 AM by lezgo killemall. Edit Reason: spacing )
#16
RE: The elementar PROBLEM with the game
(04-24-2019, 01:06 AM)wiggum Wrote: @ lezgo killemall

I thank the WDS team for doing the gold updates and while the unit graphics have been improved massively, the map artwork still looks equal in my opinion to the "old" PzC. The MapMod by Jison brings the map quality to another level in my opinion and i cant see myself playing PzC without it. In addition i did also modify some graphics on my own for a cleaner interface. I did the same with my Panzer Battle and Squad Battle games that i own. I even fixed some clearly broken graphics in Squad Battles and made them available. I really enjoy modding these games.

But this is of course a matter of taste although i think objectively the MapMod looks much more modern and cleaner.

you will get no argument from me as far as Jison goes, used to use has mapmods on all my games before the updates.
cheers
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