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What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
07-27-2017, 01:03 PM,
#1
What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
i can't seem to find them in any scenario. Is there an scenario where they show up in Panzer Battles Normandy?
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07-27-2017, 01:49 PM,
#2
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
Operation Bluecoat has them present, part of II.SS PzKorps but attached to a different korps. Probably in some of the scenarios that occur after that too, but I didn't look.
[Image: exercise.png]
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07-30-2017, 02:12 AM,
#3
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
Rick is right. They're in Operation Bluecoat. We actually had a scenario at one point where 3 Jagdpanther historically brewed up the best part of a company of Churchill tanks. Unfortunately, It never quite panned out that way, so that scenario ended on the cutting room floor.

Let me also give a plug for Operation Bluecoat. It's a big scenario but a lot of fun and one that a number of us kept going back to during testing...

David
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08-01-2017, 01:27 AM,
#4
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
(07-30-2017, 02:12 AM)Strela Wrote: Rick is right. They're in Operation Bluecoat. We actually had a scenario at one point where 3 Jagdpanther historically brewed up the best part of a company of Churchill tanks. Unfortunately, It never quite panned out that way, so that scenario ended on the cutting room floor.

Let me also give a plug for Operation Bluecoat. It's a big scenario but a lot of fun and one that a number of us kept going back to during testing...

David

Hi,

I can second Strelas comment ... I have played this a few times and its a really really excellent Scenario  Smile
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08-01-2017, 02:40 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2017, 06:08 PM by ComradeP.)
#5
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
Bluecoat is a good scenario, but it does require a certain understanding of how some of the Normandy mechanics work in order for it to be enjoyable for both sides. Specifically: Tanks firing through hedgerows at units in bunkers or units in difficult terrain will cause little to no damage, so keeping the tanks on higher ground for a while is essential. Infantry firing from those bunkers through the hedgerows at the tanks can knock out Allied tanks.

Though I've only started a Bluecoat session which ended up being dropped after a few turns, another thing that was becoming clear was that the initial German defenders would have to stage a very careful withdrawal or die. They faced the same difficulties as some of the Guards in the Kursk scenarios: having to retreat through difficult terrain, whilst needing to preserve the strength to man the second line.

The short nights make it difficult for both sides to recover fatigue, but this will usually end up hurting the Germans more as they have fewer units and can't cycle units from combat to rest.

Also: in the original version, off-map artillery couldn't use defensive opportunity fire. Currently, they can, which makes scenarios with numerous off-map artillery units more difficult for (usually) the Germans. This has a greater influence on the smaller scenarios based on Bluecoat, as I believe most of the Commonwealth and US artillery will at some point arrive on the map in the full scenario.
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08-01-2017, 05:27 PM,
#6
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
(08-01-2017, 02:40 AM)ComradeP Wrote: Bluecoat is a good scenario, but it does require a certain understanding of how some of the Normandy mechanics work in order for it to be enjoyable for both sides. Specifically: Tanks firing through hedgerows at units in bunkers or units in difficult terrain will cause little to no damage, so keeping the tanks on higher ground for a while is essential. Infantry firing from those bunkers through the hedgerows at the tanks can knock out Allied tanks.

Though I've only started a Bluecoat which ended up being dropped after a few turns, another thing that was becoming clear was that the initial German defenders would have to stage a very careful withdrawal or die. They faced the same difficulties as some of the Guards in the Kursk scenarios: having through retreat through difficult terrain, whilst needing to preserve the strength to man the second line.

The short nights make it difficult for both sides to recover fatigue, but this will usually end up hurting the Germans more as they have fewer units and can't cycle units from combat to rest.

Also: in the original version, off-map artillery couldn't use defensive opportunity fire. Currently, they can, which makes scenarios with numerous off-map artillery units more difficult for (usually) the Germans. This has a greater influence on the smaller scenarios based on Bluecoat, as I believe most of the Commonwealth and US artillery will at some point arrive on the map in the full scenario.


The initial German defenders took extremely heavy losses. The game is reflecting history there. That is the reason both the 21st Panzer and subsequently the SS were thrown in to close the gap the 326 Infanterie Division left after being destroyed.

The British tankers specifically called out using the heights to see over the bocage which at ground level was very hard to fight over. They start in a solid position in the centre at the top of the map, but once they started to move forward things become harder . This is what made the second line of hills so important. Again I have no issue with the difficulties, it tends to explain why the various historical objectives were set the way they were.

As I and Chris said, this is a very good scenario. Once you understand the actual history of what happened it plays out with many of the challenges the local commanders had. The 326th was put into an unenviable position of deciding when to hold and when to run. They were also very new to the sector and had little time to settle in. Please note that quite a range of back-up positions are provided as was the case historically - so it is possible to withdraw. The area the Germans have to be most careful, is on the left flank where Gren Regt 752 is stationed.  The British can isolate the whole front line if they head down the highway south west to La Lande-sur-Drome and the Germans have to be ready to respond quickly.

It's worth persevering despite the hard time the Germans have at the beginning as the cavalry definitely arrives.

This is probably one of my most fun large scale Panzer Battles scenario and great with a couple of players on both sides - just be ready for an ebb and flow...

David
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08-01-2017, 06:06 PM, (This post was last modified: 08-01-2017, 06:14 PM by ComradeP.)
#7
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
The defenders suffering very high losses is fine, it's the time it takes for that to happen that can either allow the Germans to withdraw some of the initial defenders or allow the Allies to move through fairly rapidly against limited resistance.

Like the Guards in Kursk, the C quality defenders have a reasonable chance to disrupt and terrain prevents convenient redeployment. The Germans in Bluecoat have less issues with dealing with their own obstacles and minefields than the Soviet in Kursk, but you still have to plan things carefully and use a lot of smoke. They do face more difficulties from the terrain itself, as movement through hedgerows is understandably not very speedy.

Again: there is no issue with the defenders suffering high losses, but it requires a careful understanding of the mechanics to prevent any German retreat from becoming a disaster, particularly as the Allies have a lot more time to do the killing than they would in PzC due to the lengthy game days.

Mortars and infantry guns not having organic movement outside of T-mode makes it likely you'll lose some through interdiction, but interdiction losses are less stiff than in Kursk due to the smaller and less potent air units.

Still, even if the units in the center die, the Germans in the eastern part of the map don't face any immediate opposition so you can withdraw those.

When I played the scenario, I was more worried about the Fallschirmjaeger than the German center, as the Fallschirmjaeger can quickly find themselves in a difficult position if the Commonwealth forces get across the river into what would normally be "the American sector" The Fallschirmjaeger units have T triggers, but you can still outflank the units in the far left if you're fast enough. The Fallschirmjaeger artillery near the front is also somewhat exposed.

I sacrificed a few battalions so the rest could withdraw, call it a fighting withdrawal, but my opponent at the time wasn't aware that he couldn't damage defenders in bunkers when firing through a hedgerow hexside from the same height level.

I just noticed my AAR doesn't actually include information beyond the opening, though we did play several turns.

Anyway, it might be a nice idea to play a Bluecoat game and finish it this time around. Though it's a big scenario, turns don't take too long on the first day.

There don't seem to be any reported games for the scenario yet.

If anyone is up for Bluecoat, let me know. As before, I'd like to play as the Germans.
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08-12-2017, 02:06 PM,
#8
RE: What scenario are Jagdpanthers in for Normandy?
Bluecoat was a scenario I played with a another play tester several times.  I have played the first day on both sides.  The British do not have an easy job.  They can breakthrough.  However German stragglers (survivors) from the 326th can set up ambushes along the roads once the bulk of the British front line units move on.

Plenty of other places to ambush the attackers as the 326th performs a fighting withdrawal.  As the German player, you know the 326th will be destroyed.  So your mission with them is is to delay the British advance in every way you can and extract as many British losses as possible for the loss of your own troops.

BTW, Allied tanks can do significant damage to bunkers.  Combined with infantry assaults after the mines are cleared the German defenders are quickly fatigued.  Sometimes the defenders are ejected without first disrupting them because they disrupt as a result of the infantry assault.  It only takes a few key positions to fall, then the whole German line is in jeopardy of being surrounded piece by piece and rolled up.  Too avoid that fate the Germans will try to fall back to the next set of prepared positions.  Once in the open, make them pay.  Then next set of positions will be easier to take with left live Germans in them.

The British have to break through, then balance shooting up retreating Germans with making advances.  Once the German reserves enter from off board it can be a whole 'nother ball game.

In every test game, both I and my opponent thought we were losing by the end of the first day.  There are no quick wins in the bocage.  Just keep on and you will have a rewarding experience, win or lose.

Dog Soldier
Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.
- Wyatt Earp
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