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Germany as AI
05-25-2017, 01:39 PM,
#11
RE: Germany as AI
Actually Gris, your point about the encirclement's totally defeats my argument about fixed OOBs, to a point, but a big point.  I agree if division X is scheduled to appear on turn 20 then no matter what happens that division will appear, whether it is new or a rebuild.  So if I destroyed division X on turn 3 around Minsk it doesn't matter, and that would suck big time.  BUT! you would still be without that division for that many turns; of course then manpower would be eliminated from play which would take away a tactic for the Germans and the Russians would have more divisions than in real life since you are destroying them but they are coming back.

However, I totally disagree with the "checker board" defence, that is purely a game mechanic play knowing that a crappy division split up and placed with a hex between will soak off Axis fuel and MPs.

My take on Russia, and I am sure yours' too, is to build a line and defend it as I am currently doing at the Dnieper.

So I agree with your points of view now, you took me to an area I had not thought of, I only thought about 'what is good for the goose is good for the gander'.  It almost seems that GG knew what he was doing when he built the game.

You can never balance a game, or a scenario, because the human element will always make it tilted one way or the other.  I have made SP scenarios for tournament play, red on blue, with each side having identical forces and players still said it was unfair do to terrain etc etc.

Good discussion eh. Helmet Wink
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-25-2017, 03:28 PM,
#12
RE: Germany as AI
(05-25-2017, 01:39 PM)Weasel Wrote: Actually Gris, your point about the encirclement's totally defeats my argument about fixed OOBs, to a point, but a big point.  I agree if division X is scheduled to appear on turn 20 then no matter what happens that division will appear, whether it is new or a rebuild.  So if I destroyed division X on turn 3 around Minsk it doesn't matter, and that would suck big time.  BUT! you would still be without that division for that many turns; of course then manpower would be eliminated from play which would take away a tactic for the Germans and the Russians would have more divisions than in real life since you are destroying them but they are coming back.

However, I totally disagree with the "checker board" defence, that is purely a game mechanic play knowing that a crappy division split up and placed with a hex between will soak off Axis fuel and MPs.

My take on Russia, and I am sure yours' too, is to build a line and defend it as I am currently doing at the Dnieper.

So I agree with your points of view now, you took me to an area I had not thought of, I only thought about 'what is good for the goose is good for the gander'.  It almost seems that GG knew what he was doing when he built the game.

You can never balance a game, or a scenario, because the human element will always make it tilted one way or the other.  I have made SP scenarios for tournament play, red on blue, with each side having identical forces and players still said it was unfair do to terrain etc etc.

Good discussion eh. Helmet Wink

The checker board defense is an actual defense, on a tactical level the Roman Manipular formation and the US Army in the 50's used the Pentomic Divisions in checker board defense because of WMD, are a couple examples. It is a zoned defense with a shortage of resources or one requiring dispersal based on a given threat.

I think the problem in the game with the checkerboard defense and most games is the power of the ZOC. ZOC can cause a lot of problems, and it is addressed by size of unit on paper, but not in actual strength. I.E. Divisions have a ZOC, Brigades don't etc etc. I think the ZOC should tie into the actual strength of a unit. But in WITE that in not the case (I am not sure if any game does this off the top of my head, I am sure one does somewhere). Look at Axis divisions at the end of the war compared to their actual strength. Hardly a division. Hence the reality to game conversion problem. But given it's current state and the fact I can't change it in the middle of my game, what can I do?

The counter to the checkerboard defense is this, attack where he is weak. Use your infantry units to clear out the checkerboard, then break through with your fast moving Panzers. Will he reform, yes. but get him to a point where he can't checker board. He is not going to checker board Leningrad and Moscow. Not Baku neither. One thing I have learned from the veteran players on the Matrix forums and I see if often. He can't be strong everywhere.

This is what I see.

Turn 13 on the Road to Leningrad. A strong Soviet defense??? One Soviet defender is an x meaning a defense over two digits. Then a 65 and a 43, All units have a Det of 10, so the defense is close to accurate. I have only four turns to crack it. Impossible??? No, the Axis have already won the game.


[Image: RTL%20Turn%20013.jpg]

Turn 15. Axis infantry press on the weak point (the 43 defense Fort of 2) with Air, Artillery, and pioneers using HQ buildup cracking the line and taking the port. The Soviets are doomed.

[Image: RTL%20Turn%20015.jpg]

Turn 16. The Soviets are isolated and will surrender. By turn 17 the Axis win the scenario. I win the fight by not fighting, and when I have to fight, I do not fight fair. I fight to win. Notice not a single stack the Axis had, had a higher CV than the Soviets stacks. I didn't fight the No 5 forts, I fought the 2 and 3 forts. I fought the 43, not the X.

[Image: RTL%20Turn%20016%20Start.jpg]

If Leningrad falls so easily, the checker board will stop me only if I attack him where he can stop me. I attack him where he can't. He can't be strong everywhere.

On Soviet defense you make him think you are weak. Have him go where you want him to go. Buy your time as best as you can. Wear him down (by ZOC!). Yes, use the rivers (excellent point, the movement delay is massive on rivers! 14.1.5. Tactical Movement Point Cost Chart). When the first Blizzard hits. Hit the Axis hard. The real fight is in 42. Let him create a huge bulge in your line, then pinch it off with two Soviet Shock armies. Even if he rescues every unit, you delayed him that many turns. You made the enemy change his plan. He can't be strong everywhere.

The Art of War by Sun TZU. "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting".

Excellent discussion as always, my friend.  Big Grin

See you on the Steppe.
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-26-2017, 07:12 AM,
#13
RE: Germany as AI
Nice post. The CB defence I was speaking of is the one I read where you have a unit in hex 1, empty hex 2, unit hex 3, empty hex 4 and keep doing that in depth, so second row behind hex 1 is now empty, behind hex 2 is a unit, empty behind hex 3 etc; at least that is the one I read about anyway.

One thing I have learned from watching the Axis AI is how it uses 5 pioneer units to attack a fort, I was always using one, but with 5 he was able to quick attack and still win whereas I had to prepared attack.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-26-2017, 07:44 AM,
#14
RE: Germany as AI
(05-26-2017, 07:12 AM)Weasel Wrote: Nice post.  The CB defence I was speaking of is the one I read where you have a unit in hex 1, empty hex 2, unit hex 3, empty hex 4 and keep doing that in depth, so second row behind hex 1 is now empty, behind hex 2 is a unit, empty behind hex 3 etc; at least that is the one I read about anyway.

One thing I have learned from watching the Axis AI is how it uses 5 pioneer units to attack a fort, I was always using one, but with 5 he was able to quick attack and still win whereas I had to prepared attack.

That one is good when you are short on units. 

If you are interested in a more detailed breakdown (or an example of how complicated things can get) read over this guide here.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4282797

Talks a lot about where to put what and when. Very advanced!
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-26-2017, 11:01 AM,
#15
RE: Germany as AI
Great link,and I have DL'd the file. I have found there is so much on Matrix that every search returns two or three pages at least of results, which is just too much to scroll through.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-26-2017, 11:30 AM,
#16
RE: Germany as AI
(05-26-2017, 11:01 AM)Weasel Wrote: Great link,and I have DL'd the file.  I have found there is so much on Matrix that every search returns two or three pages at least of results, which is just too much to scroll through.

Agree, hard to find post if you have not read them before and know what to look for.
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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06-16-2017, 07:34 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-16-2017, 07:35 AM by Weasel.)
#17
A fine example of AI play
Turn 16, Smolensk.  A German panzer and mechanized division have been cut off and surrounded south of Smolensk.  The Red army forms a barrier but leaves a 10 mile gap open, but along its' length are Soviet divisions forming a corridor.  The Germans grasp the chance to free their trapped comrades as heavy snow falls, and push into the gap and behind the lines two more panzer divisions and a further mechanized division while pulling the rest of their forces back in anticipation of the blizzard.  The Soviets seal the breach with three divisions as the blizzard begins to blow, the German forces are doomed.

DUH!!
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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06-16-2017, 11:44 AM,
#18
RE: A fine example of AI play
(06-16-2017, 07:34 AM)Weasel Wrote: Turn 16, Smolensk.  A German panzer and mechanized division have been cut off and surrounded south of Smolensk.  The Red army forms a barrier but leaves a 10 mile gap open, but along its' length are Soviet divisions forming a corridor.  The Germans grasp the chance to free their trapped comrades as heavy snow falls, and push into the gap and behind the lines two more panzer divisions and a further mechanized division while pulling the rest of their forces back in anticipation of the blizzard.  The Soviets seal the breach with three divisions as the blizzard begins to blow, the German forces are doomed.

DUH!!

Ai or not, no mercy, no quarter!
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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06-16-2017, 11:59 AM,
#19
RE: Germany as AI
Actually I did almost the same thing my very first campaign, when I got 4 panzer and 3 mechanized divisions trapped around Kiev trying to rescue one.

More workers for the Soviet mines!
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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06-16-2017, 06:11 PM,
#20
RE: Germany as AI
hi guys I have to ask have do you think about the new update 1.11.00 ?
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