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Germany as AI
05-20-2017, 10:11 AM,
#1
Germany as AI
I was reading on Matrix that Germany sucks as AI opponent, easy to defeat.  I have to admit that it does seem that I am  having little trouble with the AI right now, on turn 13 and Smolensk is still safe, Odessa isn't threatened, and Leningrad is secure with the beastly Germans still at least 100 miles away; and to top that off I have cut off two panzer and a mechanized division.

I guess the AI has to be given a bonus to be tough?
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-23-2017, 09:28 AM,
#2
RE: Germany as AI
(05-20-2017, 10:11 AM)Weasel Wrote: I was reading on Matrix that Germany sucks as AI opponent, easy to defeat.  I have to admit that it does seem that I am  having little trouble with the AI right now, on turn 13 and Smolensk is still safe, Odessa isn't threatened, and Leningrad is secure with the beastly Germans still at least 100 miles away; and to top that off I have cut off two panzer and a mechanized division.

I guess the AI has to be given a bonus to be tough?

Hi Weasel,

Try setting the game difficulty to Challenging.

[Image: AI%20setting.jpg]

From there you can up it till it provides the difficulty your looking for. Challenging should be considered the default for the Axis AI.

Hope this helps.
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-23-2017, 11:20 AM,
#3
RE: Germany as AI
Does the AI play tougher, or do they just get silly attack and defend bonuses, which really isn't making the AI tougher at all, just warping the game.

Normal is ok for me right now since I am just learning the Russian side.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-23-2017, 12:11 PM,
#4
RE: Germany as AI
(05-23-2017, 11:20 AM)Weasel Wrote: Does the AI play tougher, or do they just get silly attack and defend bonuses, which really isn't making the AI tougher at all, just warping the game.

Normal is ok for me right now since I am just learning the Russian side.

I do not believe it changes the AI behavior as far as scripting, it does changes the setting in the game options.
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-23-2017, 01:15 PM,
#5
RE: Germany as AI
Scripting is good. Empire Total War is like that, the hard setting will have you fighting a sneaky AI that will conduct feints and flanking attacks on you, while on normal it is basically a frontal attack, but not always as I have had my superior force routed on several occasions.

But on the other hand, on hard setting every country in the world will declare war on you no matter how small they are: Saxony declares war on England...oh ok.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-23-2017, 02:16 PM,
#6
RE: Germany as AI
(05-23-2017, 01:15 PM)Weasel Wrote: Scripting is good.  Empire Total War is like that, the hard setting will have you fighting a sneaky AI that will conduct feints and flanking attacks on you, while on normal it is basically a frontal attack, but not always as I have had my superior force routed on several occasions.

But on the other hand, on hard setting every country in the world will declare war on you no matter how small they are:  Saxony declares war on England...oh ok.

In Wite, it will attack Moscow using the same script at each level so I have read. The difference is on Challenge is has 10% better morale etc etc. Trust me, it will become difficult. Big Grin
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-24-2017, 06:38 AM,
#7
RE: Germany as AI
So they are just changing the numbers so a PzII plays like a PzIII, and a PzIII like a PzIV; that is a shame. That is the type of AI I dislike, it isn't AI at all, it is just bending the playing field. But on the same page, I agree with the Matrix posts that either Russia shouldn't be able to custom build their OOB, or else Germany should be allowed too, but not two different standards.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-24-2017, 08:17 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-24-2017, 08:19 AM by Gris.)
#8
RE: Germany as AI
(05-24-2017, 06:38 AM)Weasel Wrote: So they are just changing the numbers so a PzII plays like a PzIII, and a PzIII like a PzIV; that is a shame.  That is the type of AI I dislike, it isn't AI at all, it is just bending the playing field.  But on the same page, I agree with the Matrix posts that either Russia shouldn't be able to custom build their OOB, or else Germany should be allowed too, but not two different standards.

I am may be one of the few that thinks it is fine the way it is now. If you could change the Axis OOB's the game would never work in current conditions. Even without the ability to alter Axis OOB, the Axis is the current favored to win side in the meta. Players would just abuse the system to no end. I picture in my mind, the 1-2-3 steps guides that would flood the forums. 

I think the Soviet OOB should be rebuilt during the game, it was historically. I know there are problems with it (ammo, truck, support units). The Axis OOB wasn't rebuilt in the same sense because it wasn't destroyed till the end, unlike the Soviets in the beginning. Even with the Soviet OOB, the games are ending before 1944, before it really kicks in. How much of that is players surrendering before actually losing is a point for debate I will concede. It is a key fixture in the game, the Axis OOB remains fixed while the Soviets rebuilds and must do so in order to take Berlin in time. If both could rebuild, I believe your standard of victory would also have to change. A constant and a variable is an equation, two variables is a guess, hence the difference.

Panzer-balls are bad enough right now, with the ability to create OOBs, too powerful. You would have to completely change the current supply system and limit the amount of supplies coming over by rail in order for it to even remotely work. That is the problem with the system now. In reality you can't place a super army at the end of a rail line without a lot of preparation. I think there is too much leeway in the game now. 

I believe this is being addressed in WITE2 as far as the supply. Not sure about the Axis OOB.

I know I am in the minority on this one.  A great subject for debate though. Big Grin
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-25-2017, 08:50 AM,
#9
RE: Germany as AI
I think the Soviets should be restricted, as seems to be the view on Matrix too. I have no idea why Russia is allowed to build support and divisions to their pleasure, limited only by manpower, while Germany is not. Why not restrict them to the units that actually appeared, when they appeared? So far I have only built a single Russian infantry division (still turn 13) just to see how it works, and I am finding at this point the numerous units appearing each turn are more than enough. Against a human, I am not sure, but against the AI all seems good to go.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-25-2017, 11:03 AM,
#10
RE: Germany as AI
(05-25-2017, 08:50 AM)Weasel Wrote: I think the Soviets should be restricted, as seems to be the view on Matrix too.  I have no idea why Russia is allowed to build support and divisions to their pleasure, limited only by manpower, while Germany is not.  Why not restrict them to the units that actually appeared, when they appeared?  So far I have only built a single Russian infantry division (still turn 13) just to see how it works, and I am finding at this point the numerous units appearing each turn are more than enough.  Against a human, I am not sure, but against the AI all seems good to go.

Ok Weasel, I'll bite, I know I am not going to win this one, but I'll try.  Big Grin

It is not the number of units that matter, it is the number of units with a ZOC. Soviet CV is not the weapon of choice in 1941. It is the ZOC which cost the Axis movement. The Soviets are restricted by Admin points. If you followed the historical schedule, then there is no payoff for your large Axis encirclements. And what happens if they are not destroyed in the encirclements? Do you reward the Soviet player, or penalize the Axis? The answer is opinionated. If you encircle enough units they won't come back fast enough and in full strength. Also does this include the Air Force too? Or Factory evac, historically the Soviet got them all out. Not to mention players would use the schedule to game the system. 

The other difficulty is it is easy to balance AI play. You cannot balance a HTH game. It is the Holy Grail. Has never happened and never will. The best you can do is give both sides a reasonable chance to win or recreate history (you can't have both of those either in the same game). Player skill is not programmable. 

From a gameplay point of view, if you restrict the Soviets to a historical OOB, it would be boring, in 6 months the game would die off (my opinion, not fact based). What makes the Soviet play exciting IMHO is not surviving 1941, but winning in 1945. Most players just never play it that far. Play the Bagration scenario, that is one of the best ones. I enjoyed that one more than playing the Axis in 41. 

I think the point that is missed is from a game design perspective (not a historical one), the game is designed around the fixed Axis OOB vs rebuilding the Soviet OOB.  The fixed OOB's war in russia games have been done (ad nauseum I might add). Giving the Axis player the ability to build OOB will cause a whole bunch of other problems (starting with Soviets players wanting to go back to fixed Axis OOB, you can't win). Look what happen with the transport of fuel to panzer units in the beginning. That produced some crazy results. 

Ok, hang on, here is where it gets rough.

With all that said, if they want to give the Axis the ability to do that, they probably need to do it for WITE 2. You would have to completely revamp WITE in order for it to work. I know I am in the minority on this one. I will admit I tend to take games at face value. If that is what the designer gave me, then I figure out how to win within the system, not redesign the system so I can win. The real question being asked is this. Can you change this for me, the Axis player, so I can beat the Soviet player who has more skill than I do? It would be quicker and easier than me learning to play better. It's harsh I admit, but that has been my experience with such sweeping request like these. Not directed at you my friend in any way, but towards wargaming in it's current state today, this is my impression from forums for many games, too many players are trying to design games instead of playing them (thanks to the internet!). Pick just about any game and within 24 hrs after release, the players are redesigning it. In less than a day they have mastered the game. Armed with their expert opinion they tell the designer and community what needs to be done to save the game..................... (Dramatic, I know, but I am trying to win, don't even get me started on Steam reviews, lol)

I think it was Mark Herman, an experienced game designer,  who said, "you can't balance a game based on bad play".  

One last point, a fixed OOB is pretty historical. The Wehrmacht leadership often argued with Hitler on this and that, yet Hitler ignore them. So as the player, you can ask to change the OOB, but the Fuhrer won't let you. It is part of the historical play and thus an important part of the game.

Just sayin'  Big Laugh

Ok, all my ammo is out, I'll have to take cover and reload. But for what is worth, this why I disagree with the Axis getting an OOB. Honestly I think there are bigger problems in wargame design than areas like this, but will only get fixed when we the players quit asking for it. Subject for another thread some day.

See you on the Steppe!
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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