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Factory evacuation
05-02-2017, 01:01 PM,
#1
Factory evacuation
Now that I am on turn 3 it is time to start moving factories.  I have Walloc's guide but he only speaks of tanks and aircraft, and his guide is very old too. So I have two questions:

1.  is his guide still relevant?  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp...page=1&key=

2. Searching Matrix it seems that players don't evacuate heavy industry (HI) but they do armaments.  From what I found the priority is:

1. Armament
2. Vehicle Factories
3. Ground Elements
4. Air Planes
5. Heavy Industry

How many points of 2 and 3 (not sure what he means by ground elements) would you move?  If an armament factory is size 6 do you move all 6 or just 1?
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-03-2017, 01:37 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2017, 01:45 AM by Gris.)
#2
RE: Factory evacuation
(05-02-2017, 01:01 PM)Weasel Wrote: Now that I am on turn 3 it is time to start moving factories.  I have Walloc's guide but he only speaks of tanks and aircraft, and his guide is very old too. So I have two questions:

1.  is his guide still relevant?  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp...page=1&key=

2. Searching Matrix it seems that players don't evacuate heavy industry (HI) but they do armaments.  From what I found the priority is:

1. Armament
2. Vehicle Factories
3. Ground Elements
4. Air Planes
5. Heavy Industry

How many points of 2 and 3 (not sure what he means by ground elements) would you move?  If an armament factory is size 6 do you move all 6 or just 1?

Hi Weasel,

Factories in WITE provide the Commander the conundrum that makes 1941 so hectic. Without the factory dilemma the Soviet player can just fade back deep into the Steppe and return in 1944. If the Soviet player does that he will lose too much manpower and too many factories and never build an Army large enough or in time to take Berlin at the end game. Berlin will fall, but it has to fall in time to win. What you do in 41 directly affects 45.

I will not cover manpower, but the Axis would be wise to focus on it in 41. The Soviets will have to defend it in general. So for those new to WITE, I will cover the factories you can do something about in another thread. Industry. Here I will answer the above questions.

1. I have read in the Matrix forums that Walloc's guide in not relevant anymore. It is true to some degree. It is a good starting point. However, after it was written, some of the rules changed and bugs were fixed (as pointed out later in the thread). 

Looking at the Whats New PDF, the word "factory" is listed 288 times and mostly with the word upgrade or the path that equipment upgrades take. Like the KV tank eventually becoming an IS tank. A lot has changed so his math may not work anymore but his point is still valid. There are certain factories you have to get out before the Axis take them or you will have problems down the line and in some cases it is a game over. The rules changes talked about in the thread are in the What's New PDF under the following (page 236-243):

V1.06.27 – January 22, 2013
V1.06.25 – December 28, 2012 
V1.06.23 – December 16, 2012 
V1.06.22 – November 29, 2012
V1.06.19 – September 12, 2012

V1.06.13 – June 5, 2012 is the patch Walloc's guide was written for. Reading the above is a sleeper overall, but nice to know. It really just reinforces what Walloc was trying to say. In general, more info than a Commander needs. His point is this. The sooner you move the critical factories, the faster they start to rebuild and produce to create the Red Army 2.0 that will take Berlin. So the systems he talks about are still relevant. You need IS tanks to kill Panthers and Tigers to take Berlin. I won't say whether the math is good or bad, too much trouble to look into it honestly. The info on equipment is a good starting point and you can refine it with experience.

2. I agree with the list with an exception for the strategic situation on the ground. For example, usually Mogilev factories (X79,Y57) are on the first train out. Why? The Axis are going to take them and take them fast. So as the Commander you decide whether you can allocate the rail or leave them. This is a strategic decision based on the conditions on the ground. 

1. Armament - 21.1.3. Armament Production  - equipment and guns, you need these for Red Army 2.0.
2. Vehicle Factories - 21.1.6. Vehicle Production and Repair - trucks
3. Ground Elements - 21.1.7. Aircraft, AFV and Combat Vehicle Production - specific models i.e. T-34/1941
4. Air Planes - 21.1.7. Aircraft, AFV and Combat Vehicle Production - specific models i.e. MIG -3
5. Heavy Industry - 21.1.2. Heavy Industry (Supplies) Production and Allocation

Take this into consideration and this was Walloc's point. If I can move 3 points of KV factories it will reach maximum output faster. However, if you can only get one point out, then get one point out at all cost. He was referring to 3 & 4. You only get one chance to move them. If you have 20 KV factory points and move one. You lose 19 and they have to rebuild, but you will get your IS tanks.

In summary, I move as many points as I can based on the situation on the ground. If the Axis is going full bore towards Leningrad, then Leningrad gets the priority. The more you save, the better 45 looks.

Hope this helps. See you on the Steppe!
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-03-2017, 07:37 AM,
#3
RE: Factory evacuation
I don't have a "WHAT'S NEW" pdf, will have to search for it.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-03-2017, 07:43 AM,
#4
RE: Factory evacuation
(05-03-2017, 07:37 AM)Weasel Wrote: I don't have a "WHAT'S NEW" pdf, will have to search for it.

It is in the game directory. It comes with each new patch.
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-03-2017, 09:20 AM,
#5
RE: Factory evacuation
I don't see that in my installation; I have the game manuals but that is it. Is it suppose to be in with the manuals? I have checked all the WITE folders, don't see it. Sorry.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-03-2017, 09:46 AM, (This post was last modified: 05-03-2017, 09:47 AM by Gris.)
#6
RE: Factory evacuation
(05-03-2017, 09:20 AM)Weasel Wrote: I don't see that in my installation; I have the game manuals but that is it.  Is it suppose to be in with the manuals?  I have checked all the WITE folders, don't see it.  Sorry.

No worries, sent you a copy.

It should be in .../Steam\SteamApps\common\Gary Grigsby's War in the East\

Called whatsnew.pdf
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-03-2017, 10:05 AM,
#7
RE: Factory evacuation
Nope don't have it but I did get your email, thanks for that.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-03-2017, 11:47 AM,
#8
RE: Factory evacuation
Those points in the manual, which I had read before posting this question, still do not give any idea of how many points should be evacuated. From what I have gleaned on the Matrix site evacuate 1 point for AFV/aircraft, but armaments and such are not stated. Also it states in the manual that HI is required to build the supplies which the factories require to build the weapons of war, so why would you let these be captured and destroyed? To my way of thinking HI is the bases of the pyramid and everything an army requires flows up from it. Is this not correct?
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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05-03-2017, 01:26 PM, (This post was last modified: 05-15-2017, 02:43 PM by Gris.)
#9
RE: Factory evacuation
(05-03-2017, 11:47 AM)Weasel Wrote: Those points in the manual, which I had read before posting this question, still do not give any idea of how many points should be evacuated.  From what I have gleaned on the Matrix site evacuate 1 point for AFV/aircraft, but armaments and such are not stated.  Also it states in the manual that HI is required to build the supplies which the factories require to build the weapons of war, so why would you let these be captured and destroyed?  To my way of thinking HI is the bases of the pyramid and everything an army requires flows up from it.  Is this not correct?

You are probably looking for these numbers, but you will not see them anywhere listed as how many you have to evac, you will see it as how many the Axis have to destroy or inverse, how many the Soviets need to save.

If the Axis destroy the following amounts you are generally considered in trouble according to most post on the forums.

Heavy Industry  total 236 - do not lose more than 36
Armament point total  370 - do not lose more than 70
Fuel points total 149 -  do not lose more than 9

The list is only a decision tree if you have to get several different types out of a single hex that is going to fall. So if I have 10000 point of rail and 2 AP and 2 HI. I can move 2 AP (4800x2 rail cost) or 1 HI (8000). So I would save 2 AP. Why?

Here are the magic numbers. It has to due with how many points are really in jeopardy. Let's just say the Axis are having a bang up year. They advance the realistic maximum possible in the game. That puts 227 out of 370 AP in danger, 107 out of 236 in danger. So assuming the Axis are killing you, you have to move 157 AP & 71 HI. 157 AP x 4800 = 753600 rail points. 71 HI x 8000 = 568000 rail points. 

The game doesn't track how many are lost directly, you have to do it yourself, (may have change too, I do not use this myself). You also have to move units too around the front. So you usually can move 4 AP and 4 HI a turn. So AP is higher on the list because of importance in logistics, more to move, and more points in jeopardy than HI. In addition they are found in larger concentrations. Almost 1/3 of them are in 6 cities (116 AP). HI is more spread out. 

AP, HI, vehicle, can all evac piecemeal. If I have 10 points in a hex, I can move all 10 in 1 turn, or 1 point each turn in 10. 

Ground equipment and planes (actual systems) can only move once. So if you have 10 T-34 factory points in a hex, you move 1, you lose the other 9 and they have to be rebuilt (automatically, not handle by the player). The rail cost varies by system. So to move all 10 may cost more points than you can afford and if you wait, you may not be able to move more than 1, just to save the system, because once it is lost, you can't replace it. 1 point is the minimum, you always want to evac more than that. 

As far as the pyramid, if you have to choose, you can lose the HI and still be ok, lose too many armament points and your army will not be large enough for the Soviet steamroller. That is what the list helps with. It is considered the lesser of two evils to run short on supplies than AP. AP uses a smaller portion of supplies at a 1s:5ap ratio. 

The problem with these kind of numbers is:

1. They change - somebody could look at this and say I'm wrong. I may be. Probably am. Something in the math or meta is different. They play the beta, I don't etc etc. Opinions too, someone might say HI is more important than AP.

2. If you are losing in factories, you are probably losing big time in other areas. Most players are going to quit when Leningrad, Moscow, and Rostov fall. The current Meta with the Panzer Ball and HQ buildup has players quitting before turn 10 with Moscow surrounded. 

3. And therein lies the big problem with numbers. The top players over at matrix with all these numbers are way out of my league. They are playing pro and I am little league. Yes, we are both playing baseball, but not the same game. The min/max of numbers only matters if both are using it. I think most of the player base isn't and never gets that far. All these numbers make it harder than it has to be. Every factory counts and you should try to save as many you can. It also leads to gamey stuff like driving your factories into the Axis lines for destruction (yes, a real tactic, that Stalin would shoot you for, just sayin') So, often without thinking I shy away from it. Hence, missing your question. The upside is, they are a good starting point if you want to micro the factory game. It has merit. 

I try and put info out there that will stand the test of time. Numbers do not hold well in WITE guides. I will put together some basics on the factories in another post that should help. In all seriousness I would evac everything I could and not let the Axis have anything. That is what the Soviets did. It worked for them. Actual numbers are tough and tied to many different variables. 

I do hope this helps my friend, (and I hope I got the number right!) See you on the Steppe.
'Millions died or suffered in the mud of Flanders between 1914-18. Who remembers them? Even those with names on their graves are by now unknown soldiers.' - Mier Ronnen, Jerusalem Post, 1933 Gris
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05-04-2017, 03:33 AM,
#10
RE: Factory evacuation
Hey Gris, thanks for the excellent explanation. You clarified the importance of AP over HI which is really what was confusing me and what the manual failed to state.
Some of us are busy doing things; some of us are busy complaining - Debasish Mridha
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