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Utah possible bug
12-22-2015, 06:16 PM,
#1
Utah possible bug
I read the starter file and thought I would put the dd tanks out of travel mode into deployed mode safer but slower as suggested

They moved 2 hexes and changed to deployed in all sea hexes 

Next turn they moved as if on land ie much faster I was expecting 1 or 2 hexes 

Either that is a bug or changing mode in all sea hexes is a bug

A minor point but referring to release of para units that do not appear in this scen is a bit confusing

Mike
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12-22-2015, 08:19 PM,
#2
RE: Utah possible bug
(12-22-2015, 06:16 PM)Mike Bowen Wrote: I read the starter file and thought I would put the dd tanks out of travel mode into deployed mode safer but slower as suggested

They moved 2 hexes and changed to deployed in all sea hexes 

Next turn they moved as if on land ie much faster I was expecting 1 or 2 hexes 

Either that is a bug or changing mode in all sea hexes is a bug

A minor point but referring to release of para units that do not appear in this scen is a bit confusing

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the call out. Firstly the release of the Para units is a bug. It's my fault. I created this scenario very late on while writing the Getting Started guide. It was taken from the larger Utah scenario and I missed removing the releases for the Paras. It is an annoyance rather than actually impacting anything. I'll correct it for the next patch.

As far as the DD tanks all is correct. The movement costs are as follows whether the tank is deployed or in travel mode (assuming road movement is not used). 18 movement points per water hex, 12 for shallow and 8 for the beach. Flipping to deployed uses 24 points. With a total of 72 points flipping to deployed early means you can only move two hexes through water. After that you are moving through shallow and beach with significantly less costs and hence travelling further.

Hope that makes sense?

David
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12-22-2015, 09:09 PM,
#3
RE: Utah possible bug
(12-22-2015, 08:19 PM)Strela Wrote:
(12-22-2015, 06:16 PM)Mike Bowen Wrote: I read the starter file and thought I would put the dd tanks out of travel mode into deployed mode safer but slower as suggested

They moved 2 hexes and changed to deployed in all sea hexes 

Next turn they moved as if on land ie much faster I was expecting 1 or 2 hexes 

Either that is a bug or changing mode in all sea hexes is a bug

A minor point but referring to release of para units that do not appear in this scen is a bit confusing

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the call out. Firstly the release of the Para units is a bug. It's my fault. I created this scenario very late on while writing the Getting Started guide. It was taken from the larger Utah scenario and I missed removing the releases for the Paras. It is an annoyance rather than actually impacting anything. I'll correct it for the next patch.

As far as the DD tanks all is correct. The movement costs are as follows whether the tank is deployed or in travel mode (assuming road movement is not used). 18 movement points per water hex, 12 for shallow and 8 for the beach. Flipping to deployed uses 24 points. With a total of 72 points flipping to deployed early means you can only move two hexes through water. After that you are moving through shallow and beach with significantly less costs and hence travelling further.

Hope that makes sense?

David
David

The DD tank was in deep water out of T mode 

In T mode it moved 4 hexes I think 

I moved 2 hexes and changed out of T mode.


i did not expect to be able to move 4 hexes I expected 2 as this was meant to be a safer but slower method 

Instead I could do about 10 hexes through deep water shallow water up the beach etc 


It seems wrong to me 

Mike
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12-22-2015, 09:57 PM,
#4
RE: Utah possible bug
Mike,

Probably best for me to show this graphically. I have used two DD tank platoons to show what I mean

Here is what you did when you moved and deployed in the same turn starting in deep water. This platoon went out of T mode and moved two hexes - the cost in movement points is shown in red - remember you have 72 in total;

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20406.jpg]




The second platoon moved in T mode (ie does not deploy) and moves a total of four hexes;

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20407.jpg]




Next turn, we're able to move both our DD platoons again. The first one that only moved two hexes last turn, is already deployed and moves through one deep hex and then a combination of shallow, beach and finally clear. The movement points are shown and it's obvious that it costs less than moving in (deep) water.

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20408.jpg]




The 2nd DD Platoon is closer to shore and if it moved without deploying it could get as far as shown with its 72 movement points (the poulder cuts its movement short in most directions);

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20409.jpg]




Finally, if it initially deployed in the first hex you can see that it can go quite a way in a number of different directions;

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20410.jpg]




I hope this all makes sense when I overlay the movement cost per hex?

David
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12-22-2015, 10:12 PM,
#5
RE: Utah possible bug
(12-22-2015, 09:57 PM)Strela Wrote: Mike,

Probably best for me to show this graphically. I have used two DD tank platoons to show what I mean

Here is what you did when you moved and deployed in the same turn starting in deep water. This platoon went out of T mode and moved two hexes - the cost in movement points is shown in red - remember you have 72 in total;

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20406.jpg]




The second platoon moved in T mode (ie does not deploy) and moves a total of four hexes;

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20407.jpg]




Next turn, we're able to move both our DD platoons again. The first one that only moved two hexes last turn, is already deployed and moves through one deep hex and then a combination of shallow, beach and finally clear. The movement points are shown and it's obvious that it costs less than moving in (deep) water.

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20408.jpg]




The 2nd DD Platoon is closer to shore and if it moved without deploying it could get as far as shown with its 72 movement points (the poulder cuts its movement short in most directions);

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20409.jpg]




Finally, if it initially deployed in the first hex you can see that it can go quite a way in a number of different directions;

[Image: PB%20Graphics%20410.jpg]




I hope this all makes sense when I overlay the movement cost per hex?

David

ok I think my expectation was different as the start help file implied it was slower to be deployed in deep water whereas it is the same but safer 

sorry about that 
mike
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12-25-2015, 06:52 AM,
#6
RE: Utah possible bug
I noted that DD tanks could fire while in the water. Frankly that seems a bit tacky. They were doing well just to get to shore. Any reason why they are allowed to fire?

I also am noting that mortars can fire in shallow water. Good luck doing that in real life. ;)
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12-25-2015, 07:51 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-25-2015, 07:53 AM by Ricky B.)
#7
RE: Utah possible bug
Regarding the DD Shermans firing, I don't remember ever seeing that happen in the defensive fire phase in my testing, but I can believe it. There was no custom programming made to stop it, as it never came up. I believe the tanks could fire while swimming but I agree I doubt they even tried. However, do they do any significant damage? Anyway, since your question is whether there was a reason it was allowed, I would hazard to say there was no reason except that is how the game worked from the beginning and it wasn't noted that I ever heard about.

I just did a bit of digging and found this:
Other versions of the DD were tried with the British Tetrarch and Valentine tanks, but eventually the American Sherman proved to be the most successful, with the ability to swim with its gun in a forward position. The DD Sherman was able to fire its main gun while approaching the shore and once the screen was deflated, it was ready for action as a conventional tank.

I haven't verified it but I am almost positive I have seen a pic of this happening sometime during the war.

As to shallows, I believe the shallows are the area where when the tide is out, the areas were mostly out of the water - I have seen a lot of picts of soldiers hiding behind the sea obstacles when the tide was out, and then getting pushed to shore as the tide came in. As tides aren't represented in the game, I would say this part is just how it is, half the time it is about right and half not :-).
[Image: exercise.png]
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12-25-2015, 01:17 PM,
#8
RE: Utah possible bug
I have read that the DD tanks historically could and some did fire on the way in. More heat of the moment stuff than very accurate or damaging. Also some tanks could from the LCT that carried them to shore and did so. Again, not much of an effect but it maybe made the crew feel they we in the fight and not just floating targets.

Dog Soldier
Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.
- Wyatt Earp
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