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Low Ammo OOB
10-29-2010, 04:22 PM,
#31
RE: Low Ammo OOB
(10-28-2010, 09:05 AM)Cross Wrote: I could be wrong, but I think if I change any formations in the OOB it creates problems for AI purchasing. My approach is to only change the ammo, and to have the least impact possible on the OOB.

The K.I.S.S. principle seems to be universal, and I guess that should be applied here as well.. ammo reduction is a great start.

Now I'm looking forward to the "low-infantry smoke" OOB as your next project... :)
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10-30-2010, 12:04 AM,
#32
RE: Low Ammo OOB
(10-29-2010, 04:22 PM)2ndLt_Fjun Wrote: Now I'm looking forward to the "low-infantry smoke" OOB as your next project... :)

Hi Fred, I've not done any research on the smoke ammo load-outs. I have come across some information in my reading though.

I found an excellent source (citing a 1942 manual) for a British section that had them carrying 4 smoke grenades. In SP, regular British infantry sections I think get only 2 or 3 with HQ sections getting 2 to 5. I think British paras get 1 or 2 more. But the British may be an exception for smoke grenades.

How many smoke grenades do you think typical squads should get, and how would this change for different nations or troop quality? And do you have any resources or anecdotal support; or would this be more of way of suppressing a gamey aspect of SP?

I guess if SP infantry smoke grenades are considered way too effective, you could take the approach that infantry smoke hexes require 2 grenades to achieve, and then halve the smoke grenade allowance based on that logic?

cheers
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10-30-2010, 03:11 AM,
#33
RE: Low Ammo OOB
IMHO, SPCAMO has addressed the smoke thing nicely.. unlike SPWAW smoke characteristics:

deflector screen - nothing penetrates, not even 'z' fire

too much.. every unit carries some.. up to 16 if I recall for infantry - up to 64!! for artillery

freebie useage.. shooting/tossing smoke costs 'nothing' to use.. that is, you can pop smoke after all your ROF is used up - any unit can fire ALL of their smoke rounds in a single turn regardless of ROF limits.

with few exceptions, smoke does not dissapate.. it hangs on for the entire game.. thus one can construct corridors of safe movement, or havens for ambush w/o fear of 'z' fire, or getting stuck in the open w/o cover.. and in fairly short order once combat begins, visibility is rapidly reduced to 0.. and stays that way - the game turns into hand-to-hand combat...

I like CAMO's approach..

infantry rarely have more than 3-4, except engineers which I've seen with about 8..

gun tanks (75mm or larger), have about 4 - often only the platoon leader has smoke
Support tanks, engineer tank, etc have up to about 10 (still have to be 75mm or larger)

artillery - usually not more than 15 - often less than 10

once your ROF is used, no smoke fire possible.. unless armor with dischargers

smoke disapates in 1-4 turns, and is not a deflector screen.. troops behind smoke, even though temporarily out of LOS, can suffer from 'z' fire effects..which can pin them in the open leaving them vulnerable after the smoke is gone..

CAMO's approach forces the player to plan, and conserve.. make one really think about 'use it now or later' issues..

about all I can think of right now..

Greybeard
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10-30-2010, 06:16 AM,
#34
RE: Low Ammo OOB
It's more of a feeling I got that smoke wasn't as heavily used in the real WW2 as it is in the SPWW2 game. The Camo version is indeed much better but still every turn ends with lots of infantry smoke grenades going off to cover every unit in sight (I'm quite good at it myself.. :) ). I've read plenty of books and extremely seldom found that kind of tactics being used. Came through it a couple of times for bunker busting (often pioneers/special units), smoking up the entrances and then moving in to blow it up, but very seldom as it is used here in infantry to infantry fighting. Arty smoke is also used now and then. Also have some experience from my time in the army, and usually the smoke cleared very fast and never lingered the way it does in the game to completely obscure vision for that long.

And it's also to get some sort of real feeling to it due to the "I go You go"-system limitations.. your infantry can charge forward, shoot wildly, and then cover up in smoke without any chance for your opponent to do any harm back during the next turn. I kind of like z-fire because it gives machine guns the importance they had for real (even though some aspects are "gamey"). I think reducing smoke ammo would give reading terrain and LOS bigger importance, which I like.
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10-30-2010, 06:38 AM,
#35
RE: Low Ammo OOB
Firstly if some one wanted to add ammo resupply to a formation that would not cause any problems though the AI does not know how to use them.
Its adding changing some formation types that can cause problems, infantry to armour for example.

Smoke
Smoke is hard coded with very little control over allocation, mere mortals like Simon cant change levels unless he has good programing skills.

Fred its the way you are using it thats more the problem, as Greybeard said luckily you will burn through it pretty quickly that way leaving none for when you actually need it. That said agree some nations at some time frames infantry probably have a bit to much smoke.
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10-30-2010, 03:13 PM,
#36
RE: Low Ammo OOB
I agree that there's way too much smoke for infantry. The smokes I've seen doesn't fill a 50 by 50 area with one grenade, you need 2-3 for that in a good condition and I don't think that during 40s they were even that effective. To create four smoke screens squad actually needs quite a lot of smoke grenades.

Another odd thing is that in every battle every single unit starts with full ammo, not a single shot fired before that like the whole formation has come straight out of the barracks. I'd love a limited ammo button in the game which randomly reduces ammo.
Vesku

[Image: Medals50_thumb8.gif]
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10-30-2010, 05:38 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-30-2010, 05:57 PM by Gila.)
#37
RE: Low Ammo OOB
No doubt it's realistic to have a realistic ammo load out.

Also fair to point out some units in some situations went in with higher ammo than others or less(ie russians many in stalingrad had no rifles or ammo at all when one fell they picked up from the dead)

It gets a bit finicky when one decides which one has more,IMO.

There be more moans than cheers i can almost guarantee.

All goes to the pregame agreements.

Best to agree not to z-fire unless a viable target or reasonable chance,not wild area fire which is gamey.

And smoke,within a squad not too unusal to have 2-3 smoke grenades,don't mess with that please!:)
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10-30-2010, 06:49 PM,
#38
RE: Low Ammo OOB
(10-30-2010, 05:38 PM)Gila Wrote: And smoke,within a squad not too unusal to have 2-3 smoke grenades,don't mess with that please!:)

And that would be enough to create one smoke screen :)
Vesku

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10-30-2010, 07:07 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-30-2010, 07:21 PM by Gila.)
#39
RE: Low Ammo OOB
With inftry it's a bail out option most times, when the going gets to tough.

Although, i've not missed a chance to cover a vehicle that got hanging in the open and a friendly grunt tossing a spare smoke grenade to cover it.

Arty, some i think have too much smoke,also AO tanks but that's another can of worms:whis:
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10-31-2010, 11:18 PM, (This post was last modified: 10-31-2010, 11:28 PM by Cross.)
#40
RE: Low Ammo OOB
(10-30-2010, 03:11 AM)Greybeard Wrote: smoke disapates in 1-4 turns, and is not a deflector screen.. troops behind smoke, even though temporarily out of LOS, can suffer from 'z' fire effects..which can pin them in the open leaving them vulnerable after the smoke is gone..

CAMO's approach forces the player to plan, and conserve.. make one really think about 'use it now or later' issues..

about all I can think of right now..

Another important limitation of smoke, in the context of a low ammo OOB, is that smoke cannot be re-supplied by ammo trucks, carriers, canisters or dumps. Unlike other ammo, smoke is limited.

Smoke can sometimes be used as a less effective infantry version of 'shoot and scoot'. It brings some balance to the ability of vehicles to use that tactic.

We might also consider that the infantry section has fired a volley and has then gone to ground. So a smoke grenade may not represent a huge cloud of smoke (as the smoke icon displays) but a wispy blown line of smoke, and infantry that are hiding or concealing themselves.

This is all moot anyway, as John is right that smoke allowances are coded into the game, and as far as I'm aware, can't be adjusted in the OOB using Mobhack.

cheers
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