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Shoot & Scoot
01-17-2009, 01:15 AM,
#31
RE: Shoot & Scoot
MrRoadrunner Wrote:If anyone does not like shoot and scoot they will eventually end up playing only those who do not use it?

Amen, Ed to that :thumbs_up:

Because the game engine does allow it that not mean that everyone has to play it this way.

On the opposite, if there are people who like it, why forcing them to abandon it by changing the game engine? :chin:

I say, if there are changes that need to be done for some... make it optional

Best regards cheers

Slawek
"We do not beg for Freedom, we fight for it!"

http://swalencz.w.interia.pl
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01-17-2009, 06:18 AM,
#32
RE: Shoot & Scoot
My reasons for bringing up some of the discrepancies in the defensive value of armor is that the under valued Soviet armor and weaponry and the over-valued German armor and weaponry lends to the "shoot & scoot", or what I call hit and run tactics.

Most all Soviet armor is WAY out of line defensively, and I still scratch my head on the offensive weaponry and ranges of the German units. In comparison with one another, the German weaponry is ridiculously over rated in comparison with other nationalities, and lends itself to the tactics previously described.

My 2 cents.

- Greg

P.S. I do love the game however.
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01-17-2009, 06:35 AM,
#33
RE: Shoot & Scoot
RADO Wrote:My reasons for bringing up some of the discrepancies in the defensive value of armor is that the under valued Soviet armor and weaponry and the over-valued German armor and weaponry lends to the "shoot & scoot", or what I call hit and run tactics.

Most all Soviet armor is WAY out of line defensively, and I still scratch my head on the offensive weaponry and ranges of the German units. In comparison with one another, the German weaponry is ridiculously over rated in comparison with other nationalities, and lends itself to the tactics previously described.

My 2 cents.

- Greg

P.S. I do love the game however.

Furthermore, the over abundance of German equipment in general in many scenarios leaves a lot to be desired.

Jason Petho
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01-17-2009, 06:55 AM,
#34
RE: Shoot & Scoot
We have to bear in mind that a decent simulation should be able to recreate results from historical battles. There are all sorts of criteria that have to be abstracted into the attack strengths and defense strengths of various units in order that those historical results are achievable.

IMHO CS has mostly done this... (if anything - as Jason implies) the Germans need extra equipment in order to achieve historically achieved results, which implies that, in general, soviet defense strengths are over-estimated and german attack strengths under-estimated. Part of this comes from the abstraction of doctrinal differences, and combat experience level.

umbro
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01-17-2009, 07:07 AM,
#35
RE: Shoot & Scoot
umbro Wrote:... IMHO CS has mostly done this... (if anything - as Jason implies) the Germans need extra equipment in order to achieve historically achieved results, which implies that, in general, soviet defense strengths are over-estimated and german attack strengths under-estimated. Part of this comes from the abstraction of doctrinal differences, and combat experience level.

umbro

I think you have this backwards. The German is over-rated and the Soviets are under-rated.

- Greg
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01-17-2009, 07:24 AM,
#36
RE: Shoot & Scoot
Hi there Greg:

I think that you miss my point. Though it may be shown that when compared side by side a piece of German equipment has better values than a similar piece of Soviet equipment (as you state), when one tries to re-create historical results scenario designers (as Jason pointed out) have to pad German forces in order to have those historical results be achievable.

That implies that German force values are too low as they are now, and Soviet values too high.

IMHO the difference most likely lies in tactical doctrine and combat experience, though I am sure that there are other possibilities.

umbro
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01-17-2009, 10:52 AM,
#37
RE: Shoot & Scoot
Me personally, I have no problem with shoot & scoot, particularly when it is the move a hex, fire, move back a hex kind. I think that closely mimics the tactic of moving forward from a place of concealment taking a shot and moving back. I have read of numerous accounts like this, whether it be around the corner of a building, between a group of trees, or up to the edge of a ridge. Don Fox's book on the 4th Armored has several examples, iirc.

I agree that moving up 4 hexes, shooting, and moving back 4 hexes is a little less "realistic", but I can live with that.

Regarding the whole omnipotent LOS issue which seems to factor in here, there are other accounts that may factor in here. I have read numerous accounts of tank commanders dismounting to scout ahead for good firing positions. Small infantry patrols would be similar. While they would scout ahead several hexes worth, knowing the LOS of adjacent hexes would certainly be possible.
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01-18-2009, 05:59 AM,
#38
RE: Shoot & Scoot
umbro Wrote:I think that you miss my point. Though it may be shown that when compared side by side a piece of German equipment has better values than a similar piece of Soviet equipment (as you state), when one tries to re-create historical results scenario designers (as Jason pointed out) have to pad German forces in order to have those historical results be achievable.

That implies that German force values are too low as they are now, and Soviet values too high.

umbro

Umbro,

Yes, I guess I did miss your point. There is no question that IF a game designer were to make the weaponry and armor defensive values that more realistically portray the historical, it would in fact require a complete re-working of scenarios. I play CS because IMO, there is not a better game available on the subject at that scale.

That doesn't mean someone should not attempt to make one, and that is my point.

All the best.

Greg
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01-18-2009, 06:16 AM,
#39
RE: Shoot & Scoot
Greg:

I suppose we shall simply have to agree to disagree on what are "historical values". It seems that you believe them to be the values that one can obtain by lining up two pieces of equipment and measuring: range, penetration, chance of a hit and armour thickness, slope etc.

I would take that as a starting point (step A), and then line up forces from known engagements and see if historical results are possible. If they are not, then I would tweak the values until the historical results were possible. I would then attribute the tweaks to intangibles that the measurements in step A were not able to account for.

My guess is that the latter is the approach used by the original game designers, which is one reason why the values don't (exactly) match the testbench numbers.

umbro
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01-18-2009, 07:21 AM,
#40
RE: Shoot & Scoot
The units are platoons, not individual tanks, as we all know. Factors such as optics and radio communication are fudged in favor of the Germans, vs the Russians, I believe.
Of course, the Russian player can always insist on playing with variable weather, but thats another can of worms...
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