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PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
12-27-2007, 01:52 PM,
#1
PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
After much playing of B'45 it came to me that the Germans still have that infantry hard-attack rating of "6". The same rating if memory serves me that they had in K'43.

The Germans might have been short on manpower in late '44 and '45, but they weren't short of infantry anti-tank weapons. We all know that the Panzerfaust 100, which was introduced to the troops in November of 1944 could penetrate any allies tank's armor and was an great improvement in range and penetration (10% better).

And need I mention the Panzerschreck? 180 meters range and introduced in October of 1943 ( I think there was an earlier version of lesser range). Still though, 200 mm of armor like a knife through butter.

My point? The Germans should have an increasing infantry AT capability from 1943 onwards.

Hell, if the RPG-7 still gives our troops in Iraq problems I think the German AT weapons should be more leathal.
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12-28-2007, 12:24 AM,
#2
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
Hiroo,

I understand what You say. But as a player who only play the allied
side I am not fond of doing the germans better than they already
are.
In many games they have alot of A moral units. Superior tanks.
Superior guns. Very mobile units.....and more.

I think this boil down to a balance issue. They already have a good
hard attack rating of 6.

We must also not forget that the US army used the bazooka(750.000
produced during the war. The British the PIAT ( 150.000 produced)

So it is not only the germans who have useful close combat weapons
against armour.
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12-28-2007, 02:15 AM,
#3
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
The good hard-attack rating of "6" doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. The Russians lost nearly 800 tanks attacking Berlin. Those were mostly due to Panzerfausts. The way one ameliorates the lethality of the German Inf. HA rating is to bring more infantry to deal with the Germans.

If the game isnt' balanced if a historical inaccuracy is addressed and corrected than there is a problem with the game engine.

Frankly I don't think the balance will go out the door, but would cause the allied player to act historically rather than ahistorically. The Western tanks refused to operate at night in late '44 due to fear of the German infantryman and his AT weapon. Currently that isn't the case in this series.
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12-28-2007, 10:44 AM,
#4
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
Hiro,

I have said it before and I can repeat. I look at this series as
historical games. Not historical simulations.

I am happy as it is.

He,he looks like my reputation is going rock bottom. Doesn't this
club like russkies Big Grin
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12-28-2007, 10:56 AM,
#5
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
Well, despite your flawed logic on this topic, I do enjoy your posts!

I'm just curious, do you agree that it is acceptable to give the Russians the T34/85 with enhanced values over the T34/76? If so, why?

Hiroo
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12-28-2007, 01:50 PM,
#6
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
>I'm just curious, do you agree that it is acceptable to give the Russians the T34/85 with enhanced values over the T34/76? If so, why?<

AHAH!!! A tricky question!! That's why I love this forum.
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12-28-2007, 03:38 PM,
#7
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
I have found that a great many hps sce unduly favour the Germans over the Russians and B45 is one of them. A major cause of this is the superiority of every thing German v Russian , Tanks Artillery Infantry better morale, mobilty,hitting power everything, but if we are talking about Historical accurracy it was the Russians who won the war with some help from the west.

By the end of 1944 most Western soldiers really just wanted to survive the war and go home alive. Not so the Russians they wanted to kill Germans and the more the better, soldiers or civilians, not pretty but a realty of that time. Yet the morale of the Russians in 1943 1944 45 is still well below that of the German often E and D how often do we see A morale in the Russian units.

It is often said historically that the Russians lost very heavily 5 to 1 , 10 to 1

before overwhelming the gallant Defenders but the numbers of tanks artillery and men given to Russians do not allow for such losses to occur.:stir:
Barbarrossa
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12-29-2007, 06:58 AM, (This post was last modified: 12-29-2007, 06:59 AM by Turner.)
#8
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
Historically the Soviet Union won the war on the eastern front primarily because of immense reserves in manpower. Secondarily because of the material aid from the west in terms of machinery, raw materials and weapons. A few examples would be that 50% of the aluminum used by USSR industry to produce airplanes came from the west, all railroad engines and carts came from the west as did a huge portion of the foodstuff consumed by the Red Army. Allowing soviet factories to produce weapons and tanks exclusively. About 100.000 trucks were provided the Red Army from the western allies, mainly USA. Without that help the Red Army would not have seen the widespread motorization it enjoyed in '44.

The fact of the matter is that german weapons quality, level of training and experience of the troops were superior to that of the Red Army. Many games use 'morale' as a way of representing not only morale but the training and experience level of the unit, i e how much pressure that unit can withstand before routing. Red Army infantry were generally poorly equipped compared to their german counterparts in terms of firearms and personal equipment. Wehrmacht soldiers enjoyed a clear advantage in training and experience werever they fought. Especially against the Red Army whose training was simple combat. Inexperienced troops were sent into combat and those who lived learned a lesson or two about how to do things and more importantly perhaps, how not to do things. The german superiority in weapons, training, morale (unit cohesion) and doctrines were offset by the sheer number of soldiers the Red Army fielded, and reserves brought to the front. With extremely heavy casualties as a result.

This is all just historically speaking, I've not played the games enough to know if it's modeled correctly in the game. Bought the games a couple weeks ago.
"I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Monroe, January 1, 1815.
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12-29-2007, 08:21 AM,
#9
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
Bagration Wrote:He,he looks like my reputation is going rock bottom. Doesn't this
club like russkies Big Grin

I'm sure the guys on this forum like Russians as much as they like any other nationality.

My wife was born and raised in Minsk, so now half my family is Russian. I don't agree with all the foreign policy decisions of the Russian government, and the government of Belarus is an unfortunate dictatorship, but my experience of the Russian people has almost always been decidedly positive.
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12-29-2007, 08:51 AM,
#10
RE: PC: Progressively Stronger German Inf AT?
sualokin Wrote:Historically the Soviet Union won the war on the eastern front primarily because of immense reserves in manpower. Secondarily because of the material aid from the west in terms of machinery, raw materials and weapons. A few examples would be that 50% of the aluminum used by USSR industry to produce airplanes came from the west, all railroad engines and carts came from the west as did a huge portion of the foodstuff consumed by the Red Army. Allowing soviet factories to produce weapons and tanks exclusively. About 100.000 trucks were provided the Red Army from the western allies, mainly USA. Without that help the Red Army would not have seen the widespread motorization it enjoyed in '44.

The fact of the matter is that german weapons quality, level of training and experience of the troops were superior to that of the Red Army. Many games use 'morale' as a way of representing not only morale but the training and experience level of the unit, i e how much pressure that unit can withstand before routing. Red Army infantry were generally poorly equipped compared to their german counterparts in terms of firearms and personal equipment. Wehrmacht soldiers enjoyed a clear advantage in training and experience werever they fought. Especially against the Red Army whose training was simple combat. Inexperienced troops were sent into combat and those who lived learned a lesson or two about how to do things and more importantly perhaps, how not to do things. The german superiority in weapons, training, morale (unit cohesion) and doctrines were offset by the sheer number of soldiers the Red Army fielded, and reserves brought to the front. With extremely heavy casualties as a result.

This is all just historically speaking, I've not played the games enough to know if it's modeled correctly in the game. Bought the games a couple weeks ago.

I generally agree with your evaluation of the historical facts and I think the games model this very well.
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