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Shoot & Scoot - Printable Version

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Shoot & Scoot - Gordons HQ - 01-14-2009

After carefully considering my options I’ve also decided not to quit yet. Here is one more issue I would like to bring up for other members opinions.

It seems the majority of replies would like to keep the LOS as it is so be it, that's what I wanted to know.
So lets consider the other issue here which is shoot and scoot and to some extent I believe is closely related.

I know this is a valid tactic for individual tanks and other units who are in a position to carry this out. This usually involves moving out from behind a building or some other cover, firing and then moving back. Generally only a very short distance as possible is involved, otherwise fire is liable to be returned with drastic results.

Now in our game and this only applies to PBEM games, sometimes you get a massive amount of shooting and scooting going on.

Everyone it seems has to play this way, otherwise you are almost certain to be in for a lost game.

I have seen upwards of a hundred tanks plus other vehicles coming out of cover traveling at least one hex 50 meters game scale, correct I think. They then take one or more shots and disappear and you are left with a completely empty battlefield.
I must say you have to admire the way it’s often done, in fact it is a human manipulating the game engine to the best advantage possible.

Sometimes this can be countered a little with op fire, but that is not a very reliable way to do it because often op fire doesn’t work, or you may have none left. Sitting on ones guns I think this is called.
This allows the phasing attacker often to do this tactic with impunity.

Now anyone who has read even just one book, or seen a film about WWII must know this is not how things occurred on the battlefield.

Just because the game has always been played this way in PBEM form, is it desirable we to continue to have to play in this totally unrealistic way.
Is it possible to change things or are we too set in our ways.

I personally for what it’s worth I think this one issue spoils what is otherwise an excellent game.
Please think about it and consider your response before replying.

Ever hopeful,
Gordon:)


RE: Shoot & Scoot - Huib Versloot - 01-14-2009

Perhaps if units that are shot at, would ALWAYS be able to return fire once or twice the effect of scoot and shoot could be reduced. The HPS PZC engine works that way. Units fired upon, will return fire, regardless wether action points were used up the turn before.

Right now it is often easy to keep track which units have used up their action points and stayed in LOS. These units usually suffer most from shoot and scoot attacks.

Now I must say shoot and scoot IS a valid tactic IMO. It would be nice if it were a little less predictable though.

Huib


RE: Shoot & Scoot - junk2drive - 01-14-2009

Steel Panthers WAW has a Special Op Fire whereby a unit out of shots still has a chance of op firing. You can bleed the enemy of opfire then move a unit for a close shot, but you are not assured of impunity.

Huib, send a turn ;)


RE: Shoot & Scoot - Otto von Blotto - 01-14-2009

I don't have a problem with the type of shoot a scoot described (moving from cover a hex or 2 takeing fire and returning to the same or differnt cover as you advance or retreat) and feel it is a valid tatic. I do sometimes wonder about it when the road system is utilised in such a way as a lot of units can do the same thing over the same road hex's in the same turn thou.

(IE) when twenty or so units move up the same peice of road often for 5 hex's or more (over a km Gordon sacle is each hex is 250m) one after another fire and return back to cover in the same turn (six minuets) the traffic control to do such a thing would be horrendus.

Im not saying it should be stopped but don't think it mirrors the thrust of the game very well and can be infuriating to be on the reciving end of.


RE: Shoot & Scoot - Hawk Kriegsman - 01-14-2009

Actually after reading many books, watching documentaries and the like I would say that shoot and scoot tactics were used in WW2.

Tank destroyer tactics actually were based on this principal.

The battlefield as alsway been about move and shoot, move and shoot.

The stationary target is a vulnerable target.

Factor in that a turn is anywhere from 6 minutes (per the rulebook) to 30 minutes (per some scenario designers) and a unit has plenty of time to take a few shots and move into hiding.

Since CS is an IGOUGO game it can NEVER accurately have simulaneous movement and combat resolution.

To all those that want that I would point them in the direction of Combat Missions.

Now lets look at a practical game application.

An infantry unit in the woods is approached by 3 infantry units from 3 different facings.

Assume here that opp fire works perfectly.

first unit advances; bang opp fire

second unit advances from a different side = bang opp fire

third unit advances from yet another side = no opp fire

Realistic? No probably not in totality. Most likely a unit is such a position would be in a hedgehog type formation shooting at all three oncoming platoons.

What to do with the game engine?

Here is my advice.

1: Remove OPP fire from having to need action points.

2: Halve all OPP fire in terms off effectiveness

3: Increase the percent chance that Opp fire happens.

This would give a better feel for simultaneous action; it would accurately represent a unit conducting reactive fire as opposed to active fire & and it would make all units vulnerable to some sort of possible OPP fire at all times.

or if that can't be done leave it along

and of course make alternate opp fire optional

Thanx!

Hawk


RE: Shoot & Scoot - Gordons HQ - 01-15-2009

IMHO there are some excellent ideas here it's obvious others have given a lot of thought about this issue.

I agree shoot and scoot is a valid tactic for use in WWII, I didn't mean to say that it was not used at all. If I gave that opinion it I was wrong to do so.
I think there is a place also for this tactic in our game, but not to the extent it is used in the present PBEM games.

I like the ideas coming out from everyone about there being some kind of discouragement to actually using this tactic. So in other words it's not the forgone conclusion it is often at present and one has to think twice about using it.

Otto thanks for the correction on hex distance. I don't know what I was thinking of, too much typing of late probably.

Please keep these great thoughts rolling in

Gordon


RE: Shoot & Scoot - zeiss - 01-15-2009

Hawk Kriegsman Wrote:What to do with the game engine?

Here is my advice.

1: Remove OPP fire from having to need action points.

2: Halve all OPP fire in terms off effectiveness

3: Increase the percent chance that Opp fire happens.

and of course make alternate opp fire optional

That's an interesting idea Hawk. The same system is used in the Battleground/HPS Campaign ACW games. It works very well and gives a nice firefight feel to the action when the defender continuously shoots back.

"3: Increase the percent chance that Opp fire happens."

I think Op-fire is quite snappy in CS as it is so a decreased chance would be better. The moving player would otherwise be flooded by Op-fire shots.


RE: Shoot & Scoot - Stryker - 01-15-2009

I have found since Matrix version 1.04 was released that Op-Fire is definately more reliable than it used to be. I often use the counter-tactic of lining up a few Panthers (or whatever I have) with op-fire set and 80 movement points and watch them kill those pesky Russkies when they poke their noses out to shoot and scoot.

Obviously, if I don't have anything big enough to hand out a bloody nose, I don't do it, I will retreat and make the enemy come on into an ambush if possible, or try to flank them... great part of the game.

I agree with Hawk, I do remember when this discussion came up some time ago that someone "in the know" quoted tactics used in WWII which were exactly of the type of shoot and scoot we see in the game. I do know the British tank commanders, often outgunned, would spring from a point at full speed across the landscape, take a few shots and disappear into cover as quickly as possible.

It certainly doesn't feel like a gamey tactic to me, I think as you said, anyone not emplying this tactic in certain situations is likely to get their arse handed to them regularly.


RE: Shoot & Scoot - Herr Straße Laufer - 01-15-2009

Rudolph Hucker Wrote:I have found since Matrix version 1.04 was released that Op-Fire is definately more reliable than it used to be. I often use the counter-tactic of lining up a few Panthers (or whatever I have) with op-fire set and 80 movement points and watch them kill those pesky Russkies when they poke their noses out to shoot and scoot.

Obviously, if I don't have anything big enough to hand out a bloody nose, I don't do it, I will retreat and make the enemy come on into an ambush if possible, or try to flank them... great part of the game.

I agree with Hawk, I do remember when this discussion came up some time ago that someone "in the know" quoted tactics used in WWII which were exactly of the type of shoot and scoot we see in the game. I do know the British tank commanders, often outgunned, would spring from a point at full speed across the landscape, take a few shots and disappear into cover as quickly as possible.

It certainly doesn't feel like a gamey tactic to me, I think as you said, anyone not emplying this tactic in certain situations is likely to get their arse handed to them regularly.

I agree. I find opt fire to be much more effective since the new version.
I do not use shoot and scoot as a rule. I will do so with SP/AT guns such as the M-36.
If I fire tanks I may pull them back to give the enemy a more ranged shot than the one I took.
But rarely, if ever, will I plan on shooting with the thought of running and hiding.
The best shoot and scoot is to move forward and kill all the enemy that can see you?

cheers

RR


RE: Shoot & Scoot - von Manstein - 01-15-2009

I still remember my first PBEM battles here in the blitz. I didn’t know about that kind of “tricky” tactic like shoot & scoot. It was disaster. I didn’t even knew what is happening. It was like taking candy from a baby :).