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Warning, this is an extended Rant, and is just my thoughts on the coming battles this round as most players have never really played the S&D format and probably even less in an Assault/Defend battle which creates a very unique situation for both players.

This is about the two following factors

a.) Search and Destroy battles (battles with no VHs, winning is via who gets the most points for destroying enemy forces)

b.) Assault/Defend battles (where on player is dug in and awaiting the attacker)

The combination of these two can produce an interesting tactical situation for both the attacker and the defender.

In the attackers case they know they have to break through a defended line/perimeter and do it quickly and with minimum casualties.

In the defenders case they must defend a large stretch of map front and due to the relatively static nature of their defense once located they can be destroyed.

Both player have very different sets of problems they have to face, and unlike the normal ME battles where its just a case of the same ol same ol, this kind of situation requires a lot more thought and preparation, which as in the case of any Assault/defend would.

In this case I will list the following priorities.

Attacker.

a.) the need for decoy attacks, ie DECEPTION
b.) the need to achieve a quick break through before the enemy can counter with their own arty, ie SURPRISE
c.) pre bombardment of positions, both decoy and real, ie SUPPRESSION
d.) well chosen approach routes. ie SPEED

It is likely that the defender will have setup cover on the most likely approaches and will also have laid mines and set forward defenses/sentries so committing a main force along a few axises of attack is likely to be moving into a preplanned fire zone. without the DECEPTION the enemy can zero all fire on you. If you have many decoy attacks then you split the enemies fire, reduce the chances of loss and SURPRISE the enemy. Also working to help this is SPEED, mounted units which can be quickly moved are important. Finlay SUPPRESSION, with 15% arty allowance the Russians have plenty of points to buy arty with, and lots of cheap rockets/Kats as well as heavy arty to use on enemy positions. use of SUPPRESSION can either pin enemy forces preventing movement by targeting enemy approaches or covering a break-in, it also has the power of being also used to DECOY the enemy by hitting positions and then switching to another point where the real attack is.

Defender

a.) The need for concealment, ie DECEPTION
b.) The need for planned defences, ie DEPTH
c.) the need to survive from concentrated enemy arty, DISPERSION
d.) The need to respond quickly, ie SPEED

The defender is more likely to concentrate his defenses but given that the enemy is looking to locate those defenses and then anihalate the enemy with superior firepower and numbers the defender must consider the following.

Setback defence
staggered defence
Fluid defence

A setback defence sacrifices DISPERSION to DECEPTION by placing forces well back

A staggered defence utilizes DEPTH but looses speed and also spreads forces very wide

A fluid defence relies on a mobile force to avoid the main attack or to plug any gaps in the line, utilizing SPEED and DECEPTION.

None of these defenses are absolute and must be tailored to the terrain and the forces at hand. As a defender it is likely that mines will play an important part as well as other earthworks and barbed wire but the map size removes the chance of an impregnible defence and as such only if an opponent easily spotted and countered will such a defence work. In the face of heavy arty DISPERSION will be essential. The longer the defender can maintain DECEPTION the better their chances of winning.

That is a good guideline but does not apply in all parts when there is only 20 turns to use, Walrus attacked my empty side with force and managed to get only halfway through engaging only few scouts and mines. The last half was occupied by a company of infantry and blocked by mines. I would guess that another 20 turns and that would have fallen. Perhaps 40 turns and my flank would be open for exploiting. That changes principles a bit, it's not worth trying to penetrate if you don't have time to exploit the breakthrough. Of course there is a questionable issue of how aggressive Walrus was in his attack, he may have pushed faster to save time but that can't be said unless we replay the battle. That's the way I saw the fight. Jason, would you like to share your view?

agreed on those points and I may extend the time for future battles a bit.

Aggression with only 20 turns is a priority, which is why I set it at 20 turns originally as I hoped it would get people to go for it.

Im hoping to find someone to fight for another test battle, this time Kharkov with me as the Russians, if anyone wants to help me test out my theory then let me know.

Hi Guys

I employed deception as much as possible. Also multiple lines of advance.
I concentrated my forces to one sector to maintain the chance of breaking through with enough units to actually assault any units I found.
I anticipated the use on mines by having plenty of engineers. All were mounted.
I was forced to disperse my units who were waiting behind the breakthrough points as the German heavy arty was brutal to moving and tank riding troops.

I could not have pushed any faster than I did. If I had I would have lost many more units to the mines...and showed Vesku even more where I was operating.

I appreciate your tactical lessons above Dan, but I was using most of them already.
It was purely a time problem for me.
With Vesku defending in depth, as I would have done, and using plenty of mines, as I would have done...there was no chance to move faster to get to his main line of defence.

Dan you say that aggression was the key with only 20 turns available. True enough. I wonder though how aggression gets you through a minefield faster. To me it was only ever going to give away more points through kills...and Vesku didn't even need to fire a shot.
With only a few lanes of terrain open for fast movement by AFVs it was not going to take a brain surgeon to work out how to block them eh. Once the mines start to disappear from the map it is pretty bloody obvious where the engineers are operating. With a few well positioned Gold Spots...the arty is there before the mines are lifted...and the follow on troops are hammered....just as I would do it.

When I did find his units, I managed to kill them fairly quickly, until I started hitting SS squads hiding in buildings. They proved impossible to kill quickly, as I would expect, and his clever positioning made it very difficult to get any flanking attacks onto them.

I have made all these points before.
In my humble opinion Kharkov was a great scenario. Dan just allowed too many points for mines or not enough turns. Take your pick.
I did my best and the end result was exactly as I expected.
I even helped Vesku's score along by continuing to try and attack during the last five turns when there was never going to be a positive outcome for my forces.
Possibly half of my lost points came in this last five or so turns.

So...I have made my points. In the end it is Dan's tourney.
I feel that the Kharkov scenario, when played by two experienced commanders, was always going to be a solid defeat for the Russians.
If that was Dan's intention, then it was a correct result.
If Dan expected Vesku to get forward and come out to fight...then that was a mistaken idea.
Vesku did exactly what I would have done to win the battle. Totally legal and great tactics.

I should have never tried to breach the German line.
My chance of winning was only ever going to be by protecting my expensive units and trying to get kills with arty.
I didn't do that, in the name of "giving it a go" and suffered accordingly.

The only reason I ever mentioned my misgivings about the way the scenario was set up was to give some feedback, in a constructive way. so that any issues could be solved before the next round.
It is only through sharing information that we can all improve.

I appreciate this debate, but I am a bit over it now.
I am keen to move on and take my revenge against the next German commander :-)

Cheers all
Jason

Well, I'd like to add my 2 cents about Dan's post.

I'm defending Smolensk against Weasel and around turn 5 by now.
I agree with Walrus regarding time for an assault/defence battle, even the most agressive player I ever fought, JadPanther, would have a hard time against my forces in a 20 turns A/D fight, we usually play with at least 50 turns for most of our fights.
From my point of view as defender it's great that my enemy feels the need for speed, of course he can achieve a great sucess with an unexpected heavy punch over my lines but as I see he already spent five turns and is still moving forces in position, will have to breakthrough my lines in 10 turns at best and if it happens only 5 turns to exploit and considering that I'll counter attack him during the breakthrough phase...
So IHMO, 20 turns is not enough time, no criticism with this since I can get a revange against the Bolsheviks this time
As I said, just my 2 cents

Cheers

VB

Points are being noted gentlemen and for Ass/def battles in the future I will probably up the number of turns allowed.

That said I look at the maps and keep thinking these things

cavalry and bikes, specially for kharkov, that was never going to be a good map for tanks.

But I will keep my eyes on the outcomes, given the Germans may get some revenge this round it might set things up for the third round

Oh yes! I'll have to remember that next time I am up against SS Panthers.
he he
Just for the record...I lost plenty of cav scouts and bikers to the mines as well...they didn't get any further forward than my armour....and they were my scout and feint units.

You show me a Russian cavalry unit with front armour of 20 and an 88mm gun...and I'll happily use it

Good to see the players comments being taken into consideration Dan.
If a Russian loss here makes the tournament better in the long run...then I happily take it on the chin (though to be honesy it felt more like a kick in the nuts )

Cheers

In fact after seeing you have them I played through till turn 20 on yours and Veskus game, But I attacked a lot differently than you did, I pretty much swarmed round the flanks and avoided the middle. But then I was playing myself so I may end up against a live Opp doing just as bad.

All players comments and opinions are taken on board and I definitely believe that a kick in the nuts for you will save the same thing happening for others, specially that others haven't even started yet, and we can all appreciate that.

Damn, finished my purchase/deployment and sent the files to Dan, and I missed out on buying the size zero 88mm armoured cavalry units........



Alex

Yes I would have been interested in using them to....where can I get some for future battles?

Jad