07-27-2007, 06:52 PM
08-02-2007, 01:24 AM
I believe the human wave is useful in getting conscript or green infantry to move forward together. Otherwise they tend to move separately which might not be what you want. As far as an attack tactic I think it would be unwise, I've never heard of a successful human wave. It has been tried once or twice against me, both times unsuccessfully.
Valor
08-02-2007, 01:48 AM
The human wave acts as a meat grinder. Instead of panicking and sneaking off to cover when coming under fire, your men continue to charge or crawl towards the target waypoint with reduced ability to panick or break. Thus instead of breaking, they die (under any kind of considered fire).
If anyone has ever used this successfully under combat conditions, I would be extremely surprised.
Cheers!
Leto
If anyone has ever used this successfully under combat conditions, I would be extremely surprised.
Cheers!
Leto
08-02-2007, 02:47 AM
If anyone has ever used this successfully under combat conditions, I would be extremely surprised.
Cheers!
Leto
It worked rather well for the Chinese during the Korean War, but they didn't worry about casualties. I was more interested in the CMBB perspective.
Cheers!
Leto
It worked rather well for the Chinese during the Korean War, but they didn't worry about casualties. I was more interested in the CMBB perspective.
Valor
08-02-2007, 03:21 AM
Panzer Dan Wrote:
If anyone has ever used this successfully under combat conditions, I would be extremely surprised.
Cheers!
Leto
It worked rather well for the Chinese during the Korean War, but they didn't worry about casualties. I was more interested in the CMBB perspective.
Cheers!
Leto
It worked rather well for the Chinese during the Korean War, but they didn't worry about casualties. I was more interested in the CMBB perspective.
Well then it would be exactly parallel to the Korean War experience... lots of casualties!
BTW, I was in Beijing at the People's Patriotic War Museum, and was amazed at how much soviet military equipment was used against the Korean/U.S. army... I think that is a very good place for upgrading CMx1 to bring into the fold some of the "what if" circumstances of a Soviet Union / Allies war after WW2.
Cheers!
Leto
08-02-2007, 06:56 AM
Panzer Dan Wrote:
If anyone has ever used this successfully under combat conditions, I would be extremely surprised.
Cheers!
Leto
It worked rather well for the Chinese during the Korean War, but they didn't worry about casualties. I was more interested in the CMBB perspective.
Cheers!
Leto
It worked rather well for the Chinese during the Korean War, but they didn't worry about casualties. I was more interested in the CMBB perspective.
Actually I think thats more comic book than truth (the human wave bit, not the bit about being unworried by casualties)....the Chinese, in the history (singular) I have read on the Korean war, used infiltration by relatively small amounts of infantry making full use of cover/terrain to outflank allied positions and get into the rear areas/supply lines. The infiltration was constantly reinforced, but human wave would have been suicide against allied formations with plenty of artillery support.
08-03-2007, 05:02 AM
Leto, there is a Task Force Smith Scenario out for CMBB if you are interested in Soviet v American games.
McIvan, the Russians used human wave in the early war years against the Germans as it was the only way to move the poorly trained Russian infantry forward... that and Russia had some very poor leaders still focused on WWI tactics during this period. There is plenty written in this regard by eyewitnesses to knocking over the advancing Russian lines in windrows. It was used but was rare in Korea... as you point out Allied firepower would make short work of it as German firepower did earlier. Japanese Banzai charges could be included too... I suppose a commander could think there is a psychological advantage to such a thing against green troops but against somebody who knew what they were doing it never worked.
McIvan, the Russians used human wave in the early war years against the Germans as it was the only way to move the poorly trained Russian infantry forward... that and Russia had some very poor leaders still focused on WWI tactics during this period. There is plenty written in this regard by eyewitnesses to knocking over the advancing Russian lines in windrows. It was used but was rare in Korea... as you point out Allied firepower would make short work of it as German firepower did earlier. Japanese Banzai charges could be included too... I suppose a commander could think there is a psychological advantage to such a thing against green troops but against somebody who knew what they were doing it never worked.
08-03-2007, 07:46 AM
It can and does work PBEM with care (practice against the AI which as always is easier) the key as such is to make the final rush as short as poss and suppress the heck out of the defenders before hand. I use it as alternative to Advance/Assault when using conscripts.
N.B. even when it doesn't work if you've got enough troops (and with conscripts you usually have) it ALWAYS impresses your opponent......WTF!
N.B. even when it doesn't work if you've got enough troops (and with conscripts you usually have) it ALWAYS impresses your opponent......WTF!
08-03-2007, 07:59 PM
Iran successfully launched campaigns against the Iraqis in 1980s using waves of basij (teen-age fanatics) of which half were to take their gun from the enemy. The tactic worked initially because it was launched in isolated areas against lightly equiped border defenses where fear of running out of ammo caused many to flee. later attacks of basij helped to increase iraqi use of chemical weapons.
"On 22 March 1982, precisely 18 months to the day of the Iraqi invasion, the Iranians launched Operation Undeniable Victory. They intended to use a pincer movement to encircle Iraqi forces around the Iranian town of Shush, which was under Iraqi control. Under the command of the young Iranian Chief-of-Staff, General Sayed Shirazi (pictured left), the Iranians launched an armoured thrust on the night-time of the 22nd followed by constant human-wave attacks by Pasdaran brigades, composed each of about 1,000 fighters. The Iranians kept up the momentum against the Iraqi forces and, after heavy Iraqi losses, Saddam ordered a retreat on the 28th. Three Iraqi divisions were encircled in the operation." wikipedia- operation undeniable victory
"On 22 March 1982, precisely 18 months to the day of the Iraqi invasion, the Iranians launched Operation Undeniable Victory. They intended to use a pincer movement to encircle Iraqi forces around the Iranian town of Shush, which was under Iraqi control. Under the command of the young Iranian Chief-of-Staff, General Sayed Shirazi (pictured left), the Iranians launched an armoured thrust on the night-time of the 22nd followed by constant human-wave attacks by Pasdaran brigades, composed each of about 1,000 fighters. The Iranians kept up the momentum against the Iraqi forces and, after heavy Iraqi losses, Saddam ordered a retreat on the 28th. Three Iraqi divisions were encircled in the operation." wikipedia- operation undeniable victory
09-16-2007, 02:54 AM
I regularly use Human Wave successfully in CMBB as the Russians, for green troops in particular. I also use it with conscripts, but those are "touchy" at all times, and I prefer using them in a second wave. They do work when properly directed but have workable counters (artillery fire especially).
The first thing to understand is that the existence of a Human Wave order in the movement menu does not mean the laws of tactics have been repealed. Movement never takes ground. Fire takes ground. Fire is not used to prepare movement as the supposedly decisive action. Just the reverse - movement is often needed, particularly by infantry with its high firepower but short range and ammo "wind", to prepare effective fire.
This means, immediately, that any idea of putting the end waypoints of your Human Wave directly on top of living defenders, should be blasted out of your imagination with dynamite. That is not what the thing is for. You don't attack with regulars by doing a group select - Run order straight onto the defenders at minute one.
The endpoint of a Human Wave order should be an unoccupied body of cover within good small arms range of the enemy you intend to attack. The size of the Human Wave formation should be a platoon minimum, and a full company minimum most be employed in the overall attack on the enemy you are approaching. Do not overload the available cover - one squad per tile maximum.
When a platoon or more Human Waves for the next empty body of cover ahead of your formation, the rest of the company has to be ready themselves, and either in cover and in range to fire, or themselves moving (on Move or Human Wave, or Advance for fresh greens in command and moving over open ground) to fill the front edge of bodies of cover that can do so.
The point of a Human Wave is present the defender with a fire discipline dilemma - either he allows infantry to accumulate in cover near him, or he reveals multiple shooters to break up their approach. Even if he picks the latter, some may make it to the targeted cover and occupy it - though usually in a poor morale state. Everyone farther back then replies by fire on the revealed shooters, including overwatch heavy weapons and the balance of the company. When infantry fire is used it is massed - a full platoon at each defender, minimum, for 1-2 minutes.
Then the operation is repeated and the ratchet moves closer. The defender has fewer live good order shooters left because of reply fire after the last wave. He deplete his ammo for units farther away that survive reply fire. Attackers accumulate in cover closer to his positions. The rear elements of the attacking column fill cover farther from the forward Human Waves, as the latter draw the defense's available fire.
The operative part of the wave idea, if you do look at any beach, is emphatically not that a single one wipes away everything in its path at one go. That would be a steamroller. Waves break, but the next one comes a few seconds later (in CMBB, 3-5 minutes later). And they wear the defense down.
A successful wave attack by a low quality infantry battalion takes up to 20 minutes to deliver correctly, and may involve half a dozen individual Human Wave orders, of varying scale. The damage is done between them by all the outgoing fire of the battalion. The waves get the infantry close enough for its fire to tell, and "trade through" the defenders by each exposing a new set of defending shooters.
The first thing to understand is that the existence of a Human Wave order in the movement menu does not mean the laws of tactics have been repealed. Movement never takes ground. Fire takes ground. Fire is not used to prepare movement as the supposedly decisive action. Just the reverse - movement is often needed, particularly by infantry with its high firepower but short range and ammo "wind", to prepare effective fire.
This means, immediately, that any idea of putting the end waypoints of your Human Wave directly on top of living defenders, should be blasted out of your imagination with dynamite. That is not what the thing is for. You don't attack with regulars by doing a group select - Run order straight onto the defenders at minute one.
The endpoint of a Human Wave order should be an unoccupied body of cover within good small arms range of the enemy you intend to attack. The size of the Human Wave formation should be a platoon minimum, and a full company minimum most be employed in the overall attack on the enemy you are approaching. Do not overload the available cover - one squad per tile maximum.
When a platoon or more Human Waves for the next empty body of cover ahead of your formation, the rest of the company has to be ready themselves, and either in cover and in range to fire, or themselves moving (on Move or Human Wave, or Advance for fresh greens in command and moving over open ground) to fill the front edge of bodies of cover that can do so.
The point of a Human Wave is present the defender with a fire discipline dilemma - either he allows infantry to accumulate in cover near him, or he reveals multiple shooters to break up their approach. Even if he picks the latter, some may make it to the targeted cover and occupy it - though usually in a poor morale state. Everyone farther back then replies by fire on the revealed shooters, including overwatch heavy weapons and the balance of the company. When infantry fire is used it is massed - a full platoon at each defender, minimum, for 1-2 minutes.
Then the operation is repeated and the ratchet moves closer. The defender has fewer live good order shooters left because of reply fire after the last wave. He deplete his ammo for units farther away that survive reply fire. Attackers accumulate in cover closer to his positions. The rear elements of the attacking column fill cover farther from the forward Human Waves, as the latter draw the defense's available fire.
The operative part of the wave idea, if you do look at any beach, is emphatically not that a single one wipes away everything in its path at one go. That would be a steamroller. Waves break, but the next one comes a few seconds later (in CMBB, 3-5 minutes later). And they wear the defense down.
A successful wave attack by a low quality infantry battalion takes up to 20 minutes to deliver correctly, and may involve half a dozen individual Human Wave orders, of varying scale. The damage is done between them by all the outgoing fire of the battalion. The waves get the infantry close enough for its fire to tell, and "trade through" the defenders by each exposing a new set of defending shooters.
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