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+--- Thread: Is this normal? (/showthread.php?tid=15856)
Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 01:03 AM
Ran an interesting test again, out off curiosity of course..
Wanted to see if there's anything the Russian T34 can handle (one on one)or at least par with, in the Axis panzer arsenal.
Set up a QB.. meeting engagement on a large map/mid day/village/open/gentle slopes, etc.
Gave both sides lots of room for maneuver and the opportunity for long range engagement.
Choose a Russian T34/M43(late) platoon of(3)for myself.. against the AI's StugG/IIIF also a (3)vehicle platoon.
Crews for both sides were veteran for fairness and also to ensure quick and immediate positive action from them, etc.
On about the sixth turn into the game, as my armor crested a small slope, a lone StugG/IIIF opened fire on them, from a range off well over 2000m
My tanks were under a hunt order at this point so they kept on advancing.
To my surprise though, they immediately opened fire on the lone Stug also.
The Stug scored a hit on the lead T34, on about it's third or fourth shot.
The shell ricochet and caused internal armor flaking to my T34.
Two shots after, the T34 was hit and destroyed.
I the next minute, I continued to close range (hunt order) with the two remaining tanks still firing.
Both of the T34's got hit and knocked out.
During the two minutes, all of my tanks failed to score a hit on the Stug!
Interesting that the StugG/IIIF had only a 75mm L/43 gun.
My understanding is the 43 calibers don't make a high velocity gun..
Even more interesting is the fact that at the end of the two minute fire fight, the range was still a whooping 2043 meters!
Is this for real?
Soldier
Re: Is this normal? - (FGM) Max Wunsche - 08-09-2004 01:22 AM
Could be due to the superior optics of the gun sight.It's usualy not a good idea to get into long range gunnery duels with german armour.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 03:08 AM
Not knowing much about the practical capabilities of WWII tank guns, versus tanks, etc. I basically devote my free time to playing the game and hardly any for research on the technical data, etc.
Therefore have only my CS gaming experience to draw from to make comparisons.
There (CS)a Stug could hope to either disrupt or retreat a T34 at such an extreme range, at the most.
And all of that, in a six minute turn.
Just wondering, why there "seems" to be such huge disparity between the two games (CS and CM) on this..
Re: Is this normal? - (FGM) Max Wunsche - 08-09-2004 03:13 AM
I've never played CS so I wouldn't know
Re: Is this normal? - (FGM) Max Wunsche - 08-09-2004 03:16 AM
If you select a tank then hit the return key it'll give you all the data for gun,armour slope and thickness,etc
Re: Is this normal? - General Wile E. Coyote - 08-09-2004 03:59 AM
First off the T34s gunnery optics sucked. Shooting on the move was a near impossiblity. Buttoned, the tank commander/gunner had only a 14 degree view of the battlefield. Making matters worse was that there were only 9 rounds racked for the loader (and those being a mix of AP, HEAT, and HE. After that the loader had to rummage thru storage bins in the floor for further rounds. So, trying to load while bouncing across open ground was a pain in the arse. On the other hand, the Stug had pretty good optics and more racked rounds. All that being said, in a game with Lighthorse, I had 3 T34s crest a rise and took on 1 Panther a Stug (G?) at approx 800m. My T34s fired off one volley and I retreated em out of LOS behind the hill. The panther scored one hit for a turret lock (no kill) and the Stug was destroyed (upper hull hit).
As Max indicated, long range duels with German armor is a no win situation. You play hide and go seek until you can close it up to less than 1000m (preferably less than 750m). Randy taught me that the hard way by slagging an entire company of 34s (not to mention the inf. riding em) crossing open ground at full speed with a firing squad of Stugs, Nashhorns and Marders from approx. 2000m. 
Wile E.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 04:08 AM
Yes, I'm aware of that pop up!
What surprised me in the above example, was that both sides opened up on each other to begin with, at such an extreme range, etc.
Of course I did not expect the Russian tanks to hit anything, their effective (marginally at that) range was only 1500m according to the CS game.
Also, there were only few tanks in WWII that could even fire on the move and expect to hit anything and they arrived in the very late stages of the war.
So why did the Russian tanks even bothered to shoot, is questionable.
(On the move and outside their effective range)
I know for sure that the American M26 heavy tank had a gun stabilizer.
I heard of German's using it on some of their late tanks also.
That being besides the point, why did the "game" low velocity gun on the Stug, do so well, on three moving targets, in a two minute time span!?
It seems to me, that this kind of a feat, was only achievable by the King Tiger's 71 caliber Kvk43 88mm gun, if that!?
Soldier
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 04:23 AM
Yes I agree with all of the above!
It's just that my past experience with Stugs or any other tank for that matter, (again from CS games) mounting a 43 caliber main weapon, great optics or not, did not commence firing at 2500 meters.. nor did "one" score three knock outs in two minutes time.
During the "low velocity tank gun" war period, German crews complained of not having powerful enough guns, to deal with the new sloped armor on the T34 tanks, unless they closed in with them.
Now when I see this take place in the game, contrary to everything I've heard/learned about that era and what the weapons capabilities were, just surprised the hell out of me..
Not sure that it is right, that's all...
Soldier
Re: Is this normal? - General Wile E. Coyote - 08-09-2004 04:33 AM
I discovered pretty quick that I needed to "un-learn" my CS experiences when playing CM. It's like being a Chevy mechanic all your life and one day saying I think I'll start fixin' Ferraris...apples to oranges, bud. I'm not sure which engine is "more correct" but I tend to believe the CM version of reality more...uh...realistic. BTW, your T34s fired at that extreme range possibly because you gave them the "hunt" order...they were only following your orders.
Wile E.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 04:43 AM
Ha ha.. blame it on the commander.. right!
Those guys were veterans for Chrit's sakes, one would think they knew when to disobey a "stupid" order.. :-)
Anyway, just goes to show you my inexperience with those weapons systems true capabilities.
Live and learn.. right!?
Only problem is, that I've lived a long time now and learned a very little.. :-)
Soldier
Re: Is this normal? - General Wile E. Coyote - 08-09-2004 04:51 AM
Oh yeah, I just remembered one BIG design flaw with the T34 that I didn't mention before that REALLY screws up shootin' on the move. The Gunner's and loader's seats were not mounted to the turret. Unlike most WWII and later tanks they were mounted to the chassis turret ring. Thus when traversing the turret the gunner and loader had to skitter around the cramped turret trying to avoid getting wacked by the gun mount, breach and gunnery controls. Imagine doing this at 15mph ("hunt" speed I think) over open, hilly ground.
Wile E.
Re: Is this normal? - Jobu88 - 08-09-2004 04:55 AM
I'll give you another theory: the T-34C/D in Combat Mission is under-modelled, both in firepower and in armor. Yes it had a two-man turret and a cramped one at that = slow rate of fire. Yes it had Russian optics ( i.e. no optics worth squat) = poor accuracy. Yes Russian crews had a lower training standard than Germans right to the end of the war. Yes German guns of 60mm and up had higher velocity and higher kinetic energy than comparable Russian guns. All true. But who among us has not seen T-34s lose a fight to Pz IIIs ? Let alone heavier German tanks. Soldier will attest that in the scenario we played my Pz-IIIs, some armed only with the 37mm, wiped out his T-34s while losing only 2 of their own, and in a scenario when max range was under 600 meters. I'm not an engineer and I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of armor tables or penetration values or etc, but based on everything I have read concerning the German tank crews' complaints about facing the T-34, I simply refuse to believe that T-34s were as fragile as the ones modelled in Combat Mission.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 04:57 AM
I suppose my next dump question is, did WWII tanks actually fire their guns while on the move?
Speaking of the one's that did not have gun stabilizers, which was most of'em i presume..
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 05:07 AM
Yes, I remember that scenario very well, how could I forget.. :-)
That is when I began to wonder and started to question all of my old premises derived from the Combat Series, etc.
But, I like the game very much, mostly because of it's three D life like replays and the claimed accuracy in simulating many if not most of the real aspects of WWII battles.
Not being much of an expert on armor, guns and their capabilities, seeing how easily some of the German weapons (inferior in caliber) perform against the Russian sloped armor, that combined with the fact that the Russian did win the war eventually, makes me wonder How did they win such a seemingly loosing (to them)war!?
Soldier
Re: Is this normal? - Jobu88 - 08-09-2004 05:37 AM
I should have included the caveat that I love Combat Mission, despite any real or perceived flaws. I grew up on Squad Leader, so Steel Panthers was great when it came out, and then Combat Mission was and is even better.
Re: Is this normal? - General Wile E. Coyote - 08-09-2004 05:47 AM
The scenario you speak of wasn't Directive #3 was it? I just played that against Matt. All Matt's light armor went up in smoke (partially due to my trusty little door knocker in the woods) and things were lookin' good. Then his T34s started tearing my 38s and PzIIIs a new arse. My armor was dropping like flys to 4 T34s parked in a cluster. I can't count the number of hits my tanks scored on em and all I kept getting was "Richochet", "armor flaking" etc., I lost 6 or 7 tanks before I bagged 2 of his T34s. By that time I was down to 2 PzIIIs and a plucky PSW AC. Needless to say, at these odds and effectiveness, my infantry were ordered into the woods adj. to the pair of T34s and managed to bag one and chase the other off. Oh yeah...and the plucky AC crew ended up hoofin' it. :sad:
Wile E.
Re: Is this normal? - (FGM) Max Wunsche - 08-09-2004 05:57 AM
How did they win such a seemingly loosing (to them)war!?
Simple...quantity over qaulity wins every time.If i remember correctly german tank production maxed out at around 400 per month while the russians were producing 1000+...no contest
Re: Is this normal? - (FGM) BlitzCanuck - 08-09-2004 06:30 AM
If that is the scenario he's referring to then i have to say that a big reason his PzIII's enjoyed so much success against the T-34's is due to the fact they have only conscript and green crews. Put veteran crews in those T-34's and you have a completely different (and unbalanced) scenario!
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 07:06 AM
I see your point!
As long as the stock of able buddied men don't run dry, before the big objectives is reached and conquered (Berlin in this case) the one with the "mostest" of foot soldiers wins the war.. :-)
Soldier
Re: Is this normal? - McIvan - 08-09-2004 07:13 AM
Should also point out that the 75mm/L43 is actually reasonably high velocity. It was a first gun that could deal well with the T34 and was mounted on PIV/F2 and PIVG as well as the StugIIIF. The 75mm/L48 was the next step up and was used till the end of the war, no particular problem in dealing with T34s.
It's the 75mm/L24 that the Germans had trouble with. That's restricted really to shorter ranges, say up to 750 metres, but its HEAT round will still cream a T34 nicely if you can hit it.
At medium range a PIII with a much faster firing 50mm gun has a reasonable chance against a T34. It has to hit the turret, which is curved, at a reasonable angle, which it will usually do in 2-3 shots and then keep doing it more often than not. Its major problem is the much lower lethality of a 50mm round as opposed to the 76mm round which will generally speaking kill what it penetrates. The PIII has to get a killing or "shocking" pebetration before the T34 finds the range. It's risky, but ofc the German doesn't have much choice. The PIII would never suceed at 2000 metres....but probably wouldn't get hit in return either and might score a immobilisation or gun hit.
The 37mm gun, and I've played Directive #3 as the Russians, is only any use against the very early T34s with only 45mm of turret armour. The 37mm in the German tanks is much better than the 37mm AT gun. In Directive #3 the Germans were peppering my T34's more or less at will with shoot and scoot tactics and getting numerous penetrating hits as my slow conscript crews struggled to target them.
Regards
Ivan McIntosh
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 08:12 AM
The fact that the german 75mm shells penetrated the T34 armor at over 2000 meters was no big surprise to me.
Being of low.. better yet (as you put it)medium high velocity)would case them to travel in a considerably high arc.
That in turn meant that the shells were falling down on the T34's and most likely hitting the sloped armor at much less of an angle, if any.
Possibly even the roof/top much thinner armor might have been hit this way and thus easilly to penetrated.
What still bothers me about the whole experience, is the fact that the Stug was able to get the range so quickly and keep it. Not to mention the three separate and all moving targets.
The three T34s were all dispatched in two minutes or less, by a single StugG/IIIF!
That frightens me...
Re: Is this normal? - Jobu88 - 08-09-2004 12:07 PM
And of course, as soon as I post the above I have an experience in my current game with Walkure where T-34 survives front hit from a 75mm/L48 ( front turret hit, ricochet) and then the T-34's wingman blasts the Pz IV with a very satisfying fireball explosion. Go figure.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 12:23 PM
Fog of war! :-)
Re: Is this normal? - kipwatson - 08-09-2004 03:19 PM
I don't know if it's modelled in CM, but German Assault gun crews were classified as artillery, they trained differently, many were ex gunners and they had a reputation for greater accuracy than tank crews.
Re: Is this normal? - Glider - 08-09-2004 05:27 PM
And the game info screen for Stugs specifies 'long-range optics'
Re: Is this normal? - (FGM) Max Wunsche - 08-09-2004 05:42 PM
Aye.German optics were far superior to anything the allies used.
Go here for an explanation on tank gunnery http://www.tiger1.info/fibel/
It's in german but with the aid of a german dictionary it's readable
There's also some very interesting range charts for allied tanks.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-09-2004 08:53 PM
Well, that explains it.. :-(
Re: Is this normal? - Nikita - 08-13-2004 10:22 PM
as opposed to the 76mm round which will generally speaking kill what it penetrates.
I wish it ws true. I scored three front turret penetrations on a single MarkIV and ended up with 4 burning hulks of T-34 with no visible damage to panzer, including its crew.
Re: Is this normal? - Soldier - 08-13-2004 10:57 PM
Those are the kinds of examples that have me suspicious as to the accuracy of not only the CM game, but CS as well.
On the other hand, I took a fair share of ugly mauling as an Axis panzer commander in CM also..
I lost two Panther Pls and one PzIV Pl in armored joust.
Lost three King Tigers (an another game)in the blink of an eye, to a Pl of IS-2 tanks
Go figure!!